Run a small construction co. - client won't pay final invoice. - help RE: Small claims please ***Resolved***

[Kwabena]

I've been thinking.  It seems unreasonable for someone to wait until a bathroom and kitchen is fitted to pay someone for the drains being fitted (which is what I assume they want to do).  No-one waits until this stage to test them...otherwise it would be to late to do anything about them as they are buried beneath the concrete slab in the living space.

 

I would say it is reasonable to test them now by pouring some water down them and seeing if it runs the right way...that's literally all there is to the bit of the drains that I did.  Should I suggest this?

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

By all means you can suggest this but I think that you should also suggest that this should be done under supervision by a professional

[Kwabena]

Hi,  

 

I got a reply!  Very brief but here it is....

 

Hi ****

 

When the drains are connected and have been commissioned I will be able to update you on testing of the drains.  

 

Regards

****

 

 

 

I'm thinking of sending something like this in reply

 

"When you say commissioned what is it you mean exactly? Did the contractors who fitted the external pump voice any concerns?

 

I don't think it's unreasonable of me to ask for a rough date of when you anticipate this being completed?"

 

 

 

 

Just to clarify...there is no reason to wait until everything is connected for the drains to be tested...building control may have even signed them off already (although I don't know that for sure) and generally will just require to see water being poured in one end and coming out of the other to check the fall the right way

 

Thanks

[BankFodder]

Your last sentence which I have highlighted in red makes it sound as if you are pleading.

 

"Please will you give me a date by which the system will be commissioned."

 

 

[Kwabena]

Agreed...thanks for the ammendment.  I'll keep you posted

 

Quick question...in this forum are we welcome to post advice in threads started by others?

[BankFodder]

Yes of course if it contributes to that discussion – but on the other hand don't hijack somebody else's thread for your own discussion

[Kwabena]

Ok so no reply to the last email...What are my options?  It seems unfair that I have to just wait until and unknown time in the future before I will hear back with any details of what they propose to pay for.

 

I may be able to find out if building control have already signed off the drains..would this make a difference to anything?

[BankFodder]

I'm not particularly surprised you haven't received an answer and this is broadly the reason why I was gently trying to discourage you from sending this email because it reinforces the sense that you are acting as a supplicant.

It's very clear to me that these people are playing you. I think that much has been obvious right from the beginning. The problem is we don't really know what their plan is – whether to avoid paying altogether, whether to force you to some fairly brutal compromise or to be completely straight dealing with you – although this last option seems to me to be pretty unlikely.

You are asking to know what your options are now – but in fact when you send messages, you should already have your options sorted out before you send the message rather than figure what you should do now.

I think your position now is that either you sit it out and wait – or else you threaten and then bring a legal action.

I think this was your only option before. By sending your last message of course you have shown that you are reasonable and that you would like to work things are and that will go to your credit – but I think that these people are taking advantage of this.

[BankFodder]

I suddenly had an idea which might help you to put them on the back foot.

I'm afraid that I really need to go through the whole thread again in detail and I just don't have time for that at the moment.

However I think it might be a good tactic to propose to appoint an independent assessor to go in and have a look at the work which is carried out and to give an opinion as to the quality and whether the objectives in the contract have been achieved.
I can imagine that your clients won't agree to this – but I think it would be to your advantage to have offered it. If they do agree then you should arrange to get somebody in as quickly as possible and to carry out a full inspection and written report.

You need the inspector to be as independent as possible. You would have to propose it to the other side and maybe give them an option of two or three inspectors and ask them if they object to any of them or if they would particularly like one.

This may well put you two extra expense but it will probably only be 150 quid or so.

If they don't respond to your proposal then I would begin a legal action.

If they agree to your proposal then you put the inspector in and on the basis of the report, you expect to get paid or you will begin a legal action.

If they refuse your proposal – then you begin a legal action.

This may sound all quite dramatic – but I'm trying to put you in a position where any action you take will result in a Win.

[Kwabena]

Yeah I wasn't surprised not to get a reply either! Judging from one of their early emails, and the little I know of them I think the option  are going for is to try and make me accept some fairly brutal compromise.  They indicated this by their list of demands they sent early on...(see below)

 

 

In addition, there are a few issues highlighted below which will mean the final amount will be reduced:

• For the book keeping charge that has been included won’t be covered by us, this is because we have paid a day rate that and the time taken to make the payments is covered by the reduced hours on site due to childcare arrangements.
• For the kitchen lights we’ll purchase the replacement lights and bulbs and take the cost of this from the final amount paid.  
• There is an excess of steel from Buildbase left on site and we are happy for you to return this to them for your account to be credited.  We’ve checked the cost on Buildbase and will reduce this from the final amount paid.  The steel is located at the side of the house (where it was left underneath the pallets), please let us know if or when you'll pick it up.  
• Similarly there are unopened materials which could have been returned, so again we’ll reduce the final price and for the cash float there is £10 unaccounted for, so we’ll also take this from the final amount.  

So in summary, payment of the last invoice (at a reduced sum) will be held until the remaining works are completed.  This is because the contractors met on site are not confident that the work has been completed as required and because of the additional costs incurred.  

 

I’d suggest we communicate by email until this is resolved.  

 

[Kwabena]

Thanks for your other suggestion.  It would generally be a RICS qualified chartered surveyor who would get involved in any disputes,  I'm not sure if it's appropriate here though as they haven't mentioned anything about the quality of work,  which is the only thing they would come out to assess.

The drains will work...and it's unreasonable of them to hold money until they are connected.  No builder waits until the job is completed before invoicing for the drains,  they are one of the first things to go in and we can't wait months until the bathrooms are fitted for payment.  They're not asking the roofer to wait until there's a storm before paying them.

 

So from my point of view I feel like I should start an action but I don't know if this drain thing will interfere in it.  I don't know what would happen if I start the action and then before it goes to court they fit the bathroom and pay me some reduced amount for work done minus their bogus claims.

[BankFodder]

Please check back for a reply later.
However, what would your qualified chartered surveyor cost you for a visit and a report?

[Kwabena]

Will do thanks.  The only surveyor I know is excellent but would cost a fortune for this as he is based about 150 miles away and charges for travel.  I would estimate somewhere upwards of £500.

 

I would like to think I could get a  surveyor locally to do this kind of thing for around £300 as a guess   

[BankFodder]

300 quid sounds a lot – maybe you could just begin by getting another competent builder to give a view and a quote if necessary

[Kwabena]

What is it I'm asking them to quote for...there isn't any issues as far as I can tell.  The only thing they have mentioned on the quality side is that they want to wait for the drains to be "commisioned" (whatever that means...I'm assuming the bathroom fitted) before they will communicate with me further.

 

The other things they mentioned are random deductions they feel free to impose on me (listed a couple of posts above)

[BankFodder]

You want your inspector to visit the property and conduct an inspection and appraisal of the work that was carried out and identify any defects. To advise on remedies and likely costs.

This means of course that your clients will have to be prepared to allow the inspection.

If they allow the inspection then that's excellent because you get the information you need and we can move on.

If they don't allow the inspection then they are obstructing you and I think that this puts you in an extremely powerful position and you then send your letter of claim and go to court.

There is no downside for you.

If they were here and we were advising them, I would advise them to allow the inspection.

[Kwabena]

Just so I get this clear in my head,  are you saying that I should go ahead and get an independent survey on the whole job to show that there is nothing wrong with it and it is built to an acceptable standard?

 

Is the thinking that if the report comes back and says everything is good that I can use that in court to back up my claim?

 

The thing that would make me think twice about this is that they aren't questioning the quality of any of the work and I'm not sure if that would address the specific concerns that they raised in their initial email

[BankFodder]

First of all, I don't imagine that they will respond to you or else they won't permit the inspection .

That puts you in a very good position because they are being unreasonable and non-cooperative .

If they do allow the inspection then the job of the inspector will probably simply to ascertain the job and to consider that it is complete and also make a comment on the drains.

 

Because they aren't prepared to give their own commentary, it will at least give you an independent idea of their side of the story and then you'll be in a position to consider your next move which will probably be going to court.

 

All I'm trying to do is help you prepare the ground so that if you do issue proceeding - as you probably will have to do then you can do it confidently knowing that nobody can possibly say that you haven't done your best to work things out outside the litigation process

 

I don't know what else to say to you. I thought I had explained this to you and it was fairly clear .

It's your decision now. You seem to be reluctant to take this step and you seem to think that you should just go ahead and take a legal action .

You certainly could, but I think that this will put you in a better position, but it's your case to win or to lose

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kwabena]

Sorry if it came across that I was questioning you to hard...I guess i'm trying to figure my way through this process as it's my first time.

 

I'll get in touch with some surveyors tomorrow and get some quotes.  Once that's done should I email them and ask for their permission for an inspection?

 

I assume I shouldn't mention this is ahead of any legal action etc?

[BankFodder]

I don't have any problem with being questioned hard about anything.

If we can refine our ideas then that's good .

However, I feel that all I'm doing at the moment is repeating broadly the same advice.

 

[Kwabena]

Hi,

 

Sorry for the delay posting...I've been trying to find a surveyor but it's proving harder than I thought.  Not all of them get involved in this type of stuff.  I'm waiting on someone coming back to me with a recommendation for one but no contact yet.

 

Is it worth asking the question about access for a surveyor without having one lined up?

Also,  I was speaking with building control the other day and the drains that I installed are actually signed off.  Does that change anything?

Thanks

[BankFodder]

I think it would be better to have a surveyor lined up and then put it to the client .

However, if you can't get one lined up then put it to the client anyway to see what the response is .

When you say that the drainage is signed off, does that mean that in principle any concerns of the client has been addressed ?

Have you got written evidence that it has been signed off? If you can do that then you may be good to go

 

 

 

 

[Kwabena]

So building control come along at various stages of a project to asses that certain aspects have been done to the required standard.  One of the things they check is the drains as they are installed,  so the drains I have installed are signed off (as in deemed acceptable by building control who are from the council and independent)

 

There is probably nothing in writing at the moment, normally the client just receives a completion certificate when the job is completed. I could speak with them monday and see if they can issue me with something to say that the drains are signed off

 

[BankFodder]

Yes, I think if you can get an official independent confirmation. Then I think that it would be reasonable to send that to the client and inform them that they already know about this. That you would like them now to settle your invoice unless they would like to make clear any other objections. Don't set any time limits but I would then give them about five days and I think it is then time to threaten legal proceedings and to bring them.

I think you have got lots of communications which show that you have bent over backwards to accommodate them and they are simply being uncooperative.
I rather predict that once you threaten legal action, that they will make you an offer which may well be part of their gameplan anyway.

[Kwabena]

That's great!  I'll speak with building control Monday and update.  Thanks