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    • Indians, traditionally known as avid savers, are now stashing away less money and borrowing more.View the full article
    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Hermes damaged my parcel 'beyond repair' and then disposed of it!


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Hi all, I am both humbled and intimidated by the expertise here! I am new to the site so please be gentle.

 

The issue that I have experienced was:

I booked a delivery with Hermes, on the parcel 2 go website, to send a computer component (graphics card) which I had sold via ebay.


I chose next day delivery with signature and delivery guarantee (I did not take out the optional insurance) and delivered the parcel to the drop off point on 08/11/20


I was very distressed to learn on 10/11/20 that Hermes had damaged my parcel, I immediately requested it to be returned, so that I could repair it or salvage it for parts and I was told it would be returned to me in the next 24hrs.


Instead of returning it, Hermes tracking on 11/11/20 stated it was damaged beyond repair. I asked that it still be returned for the reasons above.


I was then told that the package was deemed hazardous and had been thrown away?! I asked to see the item, a photo or to collect it, I was told a flat No.


The item is my property and throwing it away against my wishes was outrageous. It was not their property to dispose of and is more than a little convenient that they can just 'disappear' this expensive and highly sought after tech item.


The contents were in no way hazardous, there was no glass, no liquids and it was very well packed. It was a computer component and I have attached a picture of it. I also have photos of internal and external packaging, I have an admission in writing from Hermes, that it was thrown away.


My contract is with P2G yes but because Hermes has refused to provide evidence of the damage they are claiming has occurred, P2G are not very interested in helping and after rejecting my claim seven times for various reasons, including me not providing images of the damaged item?! They finally offered me a settlement of £20, which I have rejected, twice.

 

I appreciate that the item was not insured, the insurance was expensive, the cover was poor and I was not making much profit on the item, so I upgraded the delivery every other way, including making it 24hr, as I thought it would not go so wrong. I however find it incredulous, that they have provided no proof, no item and no way for me to collect it.

 

Naturally I am really upset I did not take out the expensive insurance, considering how P2G have fought tooth and nail not to pay me £20, they would have really gone to the mat over £650. I just feel they had no right to throw the item away and should have provided a photo of the damage, for insurance reasons at the very least.

 

Is there anything I can do here?

I have written to both Hermes and P2G through resolver website.

I have rejected the P2G offer and have kept all chat logs.

 

Thankyou in advance for any help and I am fully prepared to go as far as necessary to get a fair result here.

 

 

 

 

pix.pdf

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Please monitor this thread for a reply tomorrow

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Firstly, a little less of the being humbled and being intimidated would be a better approach when dealing with this kind of problem.

 

Secondly, this is a self-help forum and so although we give advice, personalised responses are not necessarily part of it – and the whole thing counts a lot on you reading around the various stories on the sub- forum for you to understand the principles which came into play in each story and to tease out the bits that are relevant to you. You say that you don't find anything which matches your situation identically – I'm sure that's right. But if you understand the principles then that's all that matters.

The threads which was suggested by my site team colleague @dx100uk acted as a very important signpost as to the issues which are involved and the principles which will come in play and you should read them and others very closely so that you develop an overview based on the experience of others.

You should also understand that this thread is not only for you, it's for anybody else who comes along with similar problems and wants to understand the situation. This is why you are able to benefit from the stories of others – because they are all available on this forum for anyone to read.
So don't knock it.

The first thing I understand is that you used Parcel2Go to select Hermes to deliver your graphics card which apparently is worth £650. That was a Big Fail.

You seem to be regretting the fact that you didn't buy an insurance cover for it – but hopefully you will have read around sufficient stories on this forum to understand that firstly it's unfair to be required to insure yourself against the negligence or criminal activities of the courier. It is they who should be insuring themselves against their own failings.
Secondly, you will probably have learned that a very large number of people, even though they have bought this so-called insurance, still get their claims rejected on all source of spurious grounds.
It seems to me that your real source of regret should be that you went with Hermes – not that you didn't insure.

An interesting aspect of your case is the fact that they apparently have claimed that it was damaged beyond repair and therefore destroyed. We have had this come up a few times – and in fact my site team colleague referred you to one of those cases which you should now be following and which we are still dealing with and so there will be some interesting lessons to be learned. To that extent, we will learn some things from your case as well.

However, we tend to find that although the initial information from the courier or the broker is that the item was damaged and then destroyed, when it actually comes down to mounting a defence in the court papers, they have avoided using this justification and simply said that the item was lost.

My view is that if they start to say that they have taken it upon themselves to throw away people's property because it was damaged, that they are on very shaky grounds and frankly that would be a very serious basis for concern.

I am quite looking forward to an opportunity for the issue of the property being damaged and then thrown away to come up in court proceedings. I think we really need to get a judge to look at this and to pronounce on this.
I'm not aware that there is any contractual provision which purports to allow them to do this – and in any event I think it would be unfair. At the very least there should be evidence and there should be an explanation of why the damaged parcel posed a danger to anybody and therefore had to be destroyed.

I suspect that in the end, if you issue court proceedings – as I'm sure you will have to – that they will stop referring to the fact that it was damaged and simply say that it was lost. That seems to be the usual pattern.

As you will see, the majority of Hermes cases involve contracts which have been arranged through Packlink – which seems to be Hermes pet broker and who of course are conveniently domiciled in Spain – out of the reach of most complainants. Hermes regularly tries to put people off by saying that there is no contract directly with them but only with Packlink. You will see in your reading of this sub- forum that people enjoy third party rights to sue Hermes and frankly it is an abuse of process and fundamentally dishonest of Hermes even to suggest otherwise. Hermes sign their defences use a statement of truth and it seems to me that they are well aware of the third-party situation. In fact we just recently had a success through the mediation where apparently the mediator indicated that they were aware of the third-party rights.

In your case, the issue of Packlink doesn't arise. You arranged the delivery through Parcel2Go and they are domiciled in the UK. This means that you can either sue parcel2go or Hermes.

As Parcel2Go is the first party contracting partner, it is probably better to sue them rather than Hermes – and also I think it will be interesting to cause a bit of tension between the two of them and this might happen if you sue Parcel2Go and they find that they are being held liable for the negligence or criminal activity of Hermes. Of course it's just a drop in the ocean for them – but every little bit of tension will help.

The story is you have posted it is rather rambling and icludes lots of "distress", "upset", incredulity, outrage et cetera.

I think it would be helpful if you would simply repost your story but using a bullet pointed chronology so that we have a timeline point by point. Don't bother about the narrative.

Also, if you have put in a complaint to parcel2go then maybe you could post that up here and also their response denying you liability.

Also if you have something from Hermes saying that it has been destroyed, please post that up here as well.

Apart from that keep on reading round the sub forms. Make sure that you thoroughly understand how it all works out so that you have your own "personalised" view of your position.

Also it would probably be a good idea to start reading round this forum about how to bring a small claim in the County Court.

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Thankyou for your response BankFodder,

 

Here is my timeline:

 

  • 08/11/20 Parcel Dropped to EVRi Drop Off Point
  • 09/11/20 Parcel Collected by EVRi
  • 10/11/20 Parcel Out for Delivery then Updated to Damaged
  • 10/11/20 I contacted Parcel2Go Livechat and requested to know what had happened. P2G send email to EVRi passing my request to deliver the item regardless of damage.
  • 11/11/20 Parcel reported as Damaged Beyond Repair
  • 11/11/20 I contacted P2G Livechat and requested explanation. They emailed EVRi again.
  • 12/11/20 EVRi acknowledge email and report that the item was disposed of as too hazardous to deliver (see attachment).
  • 15/11/20 I emailed CEO of EVRi directly,  for assistance in my case. The email was just forwarded to customer services and appears in my EVRi portal, unanswered.
  • 17/11/20 I raised 'Resolver' cases against both EVRi and P2G.
  • 18/11/20 EVRi contact me by email asking for my phone number, tracking number and address. I provide this immediately.
  • 18/11/20 Documents submitted to P2G to make a claim. Documents Accepted.
  • 19/11/20 P2G Make offer of £20, I reject this (see attached screenshot).
  • 19/11/20 I chased EVRi by email for the requested call. No response.
  • 20/11/20 EVRi responds to my Resolver case with an automated response saying I will get a reply within 24hrs.
  • 20/11/20 P2G re-send original offer of £20
  • 20/11/20 I reject offer once more.

Thankyou for the advice, I am reading the cases you directed me to.

 

Best Regards

 

 

hermes screenshots.pdf

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Okay well it seems to me that you are at a point where you may as well issue a letter of claim against parcel2go.

Read around, understand the principles.

Spend some time understanding the steps involved in bringing a small claim. Understand also that it will probably go to mediation – although we're not entirely sure what parcel2go's response pattern is like because we are more used to dealing with Hermes.

Understand how mediation normally works. The role of the mediator. The attempt to make you compromise on your rights and whether you want to choose to put your heels in and insist on the lot.

Make sure that you are happy to incur the costs of bringing a small claim for this value – which will probably about a hundred quid or so – which you will get back if you win. However, be prepared to accept the risk of losing and that you might then lose your court fees as well.

Come back here when you're sure that this is what you want to do and you want to issue the claim and we will help you through the next step

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Thankyou,

 

I am drafting my letter of claim, as it has to posted the day it is dated, I have a few days to get the letter correct. This also gives them an opportunity to further hang themselves by not responding to previous Emails/Claims/Resolver cases.

 

I have registered with the Gov website, in preparation for making a claim, which I understand would not proceed until 30days after the letter of claim is received by them.

 

Best regards

Edited by bluemarineguy
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Okay, that letter of claim will do. It's a bit wordy – but it doesn't matter.

Send it off and register on the moneyclaim website and start preparing your claim. You can save your work as you go. Post your proposed particulars of claim here for us to have a look. Keep them brief.

There will be a checkbox for you to tick if you want to send further particulars of claim but I don't think you need to. Don't tick the box although let us see your particulars of claim first.

Get ready to click the claim off on day 15

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Thankyou Bankfodder,

 

I will send the letter on Monday, first class recorded.

 

I have all but paid for my Money Claim. I am ready to hit go on day 14. 

 

The particulars of claim I have listed are as follows:

 

Quote

I paid Parcel2Go (P2G) to deliver a parcel for me, via their website. Delivery was 24hr, with signature and delivery guarantee. My parcel contained a computer component, that I had sold on Ebay. Parcel2Go contracted EVRi to deliver the parcel. On the day of expected delivery, EVRi informed P2G that my parcel was damaged. This was a very well packaged item, in its original packaging, wrapped in bubblewrap, then packed into a larger box surrounded by airpillows. I requested that the item be delivered regardless, returned, or I would collect it from the depot. The day following this, EVRi informed P2G that the parcel had been damaged beyond repair and that they had disposed of it. I complained to P2G but they were unwilling to provide me with photographic evidence of the damage and were unwilling to allow me to collect my property. My claim is that P2G are in breach of contract as their contracted courier has not only been negligent with my property but also has disposed of it, against my wishes and without providing either explanation or proof as to why they have done so.

 

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I expect you only need about a quarter of that. We'll have a look tomorrow or during the week

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Use this as a basis

 

 

Quote

I used the defendants' service to courier a parcel containing a computer component to and address in XXXtown. Reference number XXXX using a signed for 24hour guaranteed delivery option. On the day of expected delivery, I was informed that my parcel was damaged. I requested the return of my property but in breach of this instruction the item was apparently destroyed.The defendant has declined to provide evidence of the damage or the destruction  and had no authority to deal with my property in this way in any event.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Ok small update, P2G waited to the exact 14th day of notice given in my letter of claim. Just to refuse my claim once more on the grounds of having not taken out optional insurance. I have unfortunately been in hospital with Covid, so havent followed up with the moneyclaim but that is a high priority.

I have attached their reply. Its not in pdf, but its the best I can do from my phone.

 

Ref: ......

Good Morning ....

,
Thank you for your recent letter.
Firstly please allow me to offer you our most sincere apologies for the service you have received on this occasion.

 

When booking your order, you entered a value for your goods of £635.00. Unfortunately, you did not take out any further parcel protection for the contents. As a result of this, you were only protected to the value of £20.00.


You were urged on two occasions to protect your goods to their full value. We offer our customers the opportunity to fully protect their goods so that an event such as this we can compensate for the item.


When progressing with the order having not protected your goods, the following message appears:
“You have declared the full value of your item(s) at £
635.00, however, you will only be protected for the basic rate of £20.00.
Would you like to take out extra protection for your items up to £635.00 for only £30.75 plus VAT
Yes, please increase my protection to the full value
No, thanks. I will accept the risk'


If you select no, a red box pops up and explains ‘We strongly recommend that you protect the full value of your item(s)., which again in this instance was bypassed.


As you did not do this, we have offered you the £20 standard protection plus the return of your carriage fees. I do hope this explains information to you further.


I fully understand this is not the amount you wished for an as per your previous email you wish to take this matter, and of course that is your prerogative to do so, however, I must strongly advise you that should an item become lost or damage and we accept liability, which we have in this instance, as per our Terms we will only be liable for the cost of service unless protection has been purchased, in this instance it has for the standard £20.00, this does mean we are only liable for this amount.


if this does go through the courts I must also advise we will defend based on the information provided above.
Again we do apologise for all the inconvenience caused on this matter.


Thank you, ....., for your time on this case.


Kindest Regards
Chelsea Walton
Asset Protection Officer.

 

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Thanks for this. Their reply is completely predictable.

If you are still prepared to go ahead then you should send the claim as soon as possible.

Sorry about the Covid – but it looks like you are surviving. Bravo

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello all, hope you had a good Xmas and are enjoying the New Year!

 

I filed the claim end of December and P2G requested a 14 day extension. This brings the deadline to 25th January 2020. I will update you as and when they respond to the claim.

 

The defendant has requested more time to respond

Parcel2Go.com has requested an extra 14 days to respond. They now have until 4pm on 25 January 2021 to respond.

You can request a County Court Judgment against them if they don’t respond by the deadline.

 

 

best regards

 

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Thanks for this. This is absolutely normal for P2G. They always acknowledge and extend the time for the defence by extra 14 days – to 28 days in total.

Probably the next thing you will get will be a fairly normal cut-and-paste defence. Then at some point you will receive a directions questionnaire asking you if you want to continue, which court you want to go to and indicating that P2G is prepared to go to mediation and are you happy to do this as well.

It will be when you receive the DQ that you have to make the decision about whether to pay the fee which goes along with that. Assuming that you win your case then you will get all of that back.

This is P2G testing you and pushing you and seeing how far you are prepared to go.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok little update,

 

Parcel2Go have not responded to my claim by the deadline, despite them being the ones who extended that deadline until today. As such the Moneyclaim site says I can request a CCJ against them:

 

The defendant has not responded to your claim. You can request a County Court Judgment against them.

 

This has caught me off guard as I was all prepared for mediation! I have submitted my request for CCJ today, which takes up to another 10 days:

 

You requested a County Court Judgment on 25 January 2021.

We’ll contact you to tell you whether the judgment has been entered. We aim to do this within 10 working days

Parcel2Go.com can no longer respond to the claim using this service.

If we receive a postal response that they sent before the deadline we’ll reject your request for judgment.

 

I will update if there is any response or payment.

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Excellent well done.

Please do understand that even though they have missed the deadline, if they suddenly wake up and put in their defence before your application for judgement is approved, then their defence will take priority.

So although it's looking good, you can't be sure for at least seven or eight days – and maybe the whole 10 days.

Keep an eye on what happens in let us know.

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