CEL MNPR PCN - no permit - appealed - The Albert Social Club, Albert Stress, Fleet, Hampshire

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Hi all, 

I’m brand new here and someone on another forum instructed me to come here for advice. 

I lost my job due to Covid and have been trying to make ends meat by doing a delivery job. Unfortunately in my first week of doing it, I parked somewhere I shouldn’t have. 

I just got a letter in the post saying I have a £100 parking charge that’s reduced to £60 if I pay within 14 days. 

I parked in the car park at a social club for about about 15 mins not realising I couldn’t park there. I’m 99% sure it’s a council car park (says PCN).

It says at the bottom that failure to pay the amount due within 28 days of issue may result in Civil Enforcement LTD (the creditor) forwarding my account to a debt recovery agency and I may incur additional costs. 

As I say, I didn’t realise I couldn’t park there. If I didn’t pay it, are they “empty threats” or would they pursue this and I get charged more and have a debt agency come round?

I really don’t want to pay it if I don’t have to as I don’t have any money as it is.

But at the same time I don’t want the price to go up and I pay more as well as it affecting my credit. 

I’d love it if people could help.

Let me know what other info you need and I am happy to provide it.

[FTMDave]

A few things first.  Civil Enforcement Ltd are a private company so this means it isn't a fine, as a private company doesn't have the power to fine anyone, it's an invoice. 

The con artists call their bits of paper a Parking Charge Notice which is completely different from a council Penalty Charge Notice, yet both have the same abbreviation, wonder why?   It'll be the social club's car park.

Debt collection agencies are just paper tigers who can't do anything as it's not their debt, so I wouldn't be worried about them becoming involved.  I've never heard of one "coming round".

Similarly your credit could only be affected if you were taken to court, lost the court case, and then defied the court by not paying within the 30 days given.  So something else to not worry about. 

Can you read our upload guide and put up the letter you got (suitably redacted)?  It would be very useful to see what they've reckoned you've done wrong and how we can fight it.

Plus, will your work take you to the area in the near future?  Photos of CEL's signage would be good to have.

Can you also fill in the forum sticky please?  It'll help us to see if CEL have been bothered to follow the law.

 

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Thanks and yes sure. Should I be blurring out the PCN number?

[FTMDave]

Yes, please redact the PCN number, reg no, your details, etc.  Best to keep the fleecers guessing.

 

We have loads of CEL threads on the forum and they have been seen off many, many times.

[Keeping It Anonymous]

This is all that came in the post.

I haven't received any photos of my car parked there.

Please let me know if I should have blurred anything else out and I'll quickly remove this post then reupload the photos.

 

 

 

CEL PCN.pdf

[FTMDave]

I've converted the images to PDF so only registered Caggers can see them - as I say, best to keep the fleecers guessing.

 

Excellent news!  "Permit Holders Only" means that you could never, in no case, have been allowed to park there.  In law that's a Prohibition.  It makes you a trespasser, and only the landowner (not CEL) can sue you for trespass, which is unlikely as your vehicle did about £0.01 damage to the tarmac.

 

Don't expect CEL to see it that way though, they've got their hands on your address from the DVLA and will destroy half the Amazon in the coming months with standard letters which are supposed to be threatening, demanding payment.  These will all be "empty threats" to use your phrase. 

 

 

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Thanks you think I shouldn't pay it?

What's the next step?

I assume I'm going to get more letters coming through my letter box that I'll continue to post on here but likely to just ignore?

 

Should I also fill in that form you sent me?

If so should I be filling it out from where it says

"For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture"? 

You did say it's a different sort of Parking Notice so I'm not sure if I still need to fill that in?

[FTMDave]

The thing to remember is that CEL (and similar companies) don't give a damn about the law.  Their whole vile business model is based on threatening motorists into coughing up money they don't owe.

 

So yes, don't pay, and ignore their letters which will indeed pretend the amount has somehow increased even though they have no right to add extra amounts.

 

After their initial wave of tripe they may give up, or they might send a Letter Before Action on a fishing exercise - that is the time to give them both barrels and make it quite clear they would get a good kicking if they did court.  But that is months away yet.

 

Yes, please fill in the ANPR capture sticky.  This will  let us see if they've followed the law regarding timescales of sending the NTK out.  It may also be that the car park is already known to the forum.

 

Anything else you can do to undermine CEL's case is always useful.  Photos of the car park signs if you go near there.   Sussing out from the council if CEL have planning permission for the signs (they won't have).  Etc.

 

 

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Ok thanks.

Am I able to private message you?

Currently I haven't written enough messages to be able to do that but there's something I wanted to ask in private.

 

Also it's a very small car park (about 15 car park bays maybe?) in a very quiet area

I highly doubt anyone's had the same issues in that car park since there's so little traffic and cars that park there but happy to write it.

 

I'm just wary over the fact that it might be easy to work out who I am from the date/time of parking and the car park it happened in? Based on this, is it ok to say the name of the car park? 

 

All of the information I have is on that letter I uploaded so when I fill in the form, I'll just be taking the info from that letter anyway.

 

Lastly, is it worth me speaking to the community club and say I'm very sorry for the car in my name being parked there (not mentioning I drove it). I can they say it was night and the driver couldn't see any signs about not being allowed to park there.

 

Then I can politely ask if they could let the designated driver off this time and in future when they see the car driving around doing deliveries (that is a popular road for deliveries), the driver will make sure not to park at the community club. Is that worth a go? Would the community club have the means and power to "cancel" my parking charge?

[lookinforinfo]

Yes could you please complete the questions.

There may be other mistakes on the PCN that will lessen their chances of getting any money from you.

 

On another matter, was your stop at the Social club anything to do with your job -like doing a delivery etc?

 

Yes you will get more letters from them and unregulated debt collectors and their dodgy alleged debt will increase.

 

A few months later when they have heard nothing from you they then start playing MR Nice Guy and offer you a price reduction. That would be good of them were it not for the point that you don't owe them any money.

 

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Yes I stopped at the social club because I had 2 deliveries on that road.

I decided parking in one of the bays there was easier than on the road.

 

Once parked there I went to the first house to deliver (took a while to find so my car ended up sitting in the car park for maybe 10-15 mins) and then onto the next house to deliver.

 

I've done some research on Civil Enforcement Ltd online and it does seem they go all the way and take people to court.

 

Honestly, should I just pay up?

[FTMDave]

To answer your questions.

Yes, the social club do have the power to call CEL off. 

Whether they will as you weren't a genuine customer, who knows.

If you fill in the sticky we will see the dates that CEL sent their demand out. 

These are important for them to create keeper liability or not (remember they don't know who was driving the vehicle). 

I'm happy to help if PM is strictly necessary but the forum policy is for advice to be publicly available, as it could help other motorists in the same car park in future.

do you think the signs weren't illuminated? 

Yet another reason for CEL's demand being pants. 

How the hell could you enter a contract with them by reading their signs if they were in the pitch black?!!!

Yes, CEL do take people to court. 

And they regularly get a good hiding in court (plenty of examples on our PPC Successes thread at the top of the page, and on the Parking Prankster's blog). 

That is why the forum strategy is to ignore all their initial hogwash (so they don't think you're a mug who takes their crooked appeals procedure seriously and will cough up). 

Then if they send an LBA the strategy is to give them both barrels (again to show you're not a mug who doesn't know the law or might ignore court papers, and they will be left severely out of pocket if they did court). 

The strategy generally succeeds. 

They don't like motorists who are trouble. 

But of course there are no guarantees. 

Up to you if you're up for the fight. 

Yes, you could pay £60 that you don't owe and have an easy life. 

Or you could pay £0 (which is what you do owe), have to put a bit of work in, but have the satisfaction of seeing off these crooks. 

But as I say, up to you.  

[Keeping It Anonymous]

1 Date of the infringement 27th September 2020

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] Firstly I'm not sure if the letter I received is an NTK as it doesn't explicitly say "Notice To Keeper" anywhere. It says "Issue Date" 1st October 2020 although I only received the letter today (5th October 2020).

3 Date received 5th October 2020

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N9

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? No

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up No

7 Who is the parking company? Civil Enforcement LTD

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] The Albert Social Club, Albert Stress, Fleet, Hampshire

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. cs-service / POPLA / BPA

I'm not sure if the signs were illuminated.

I didn't see them but wasn't really looking.

I was in a rush so quickly parked my car and jumped out of it.

I can possibly have a look this Wednesday to check.

I'm happy to put up a fight but only if I'm likely to win.

It would be horrible to lose the fight and end up paying more.

I've never been to court and I probably wouldn't be able to argue my case in a clear and articulate way.

But if it did get to that stage I hope i could have a spokesperson.

Before that stage, I'll always go with the advice given on here!

On another note I've just realised it does say the time I was parked in the car park and it was much longer than I realised.  

28 mins 48 seconds "apparently".

[dx100uk]

urm..

this cant be a ANPR capture as no pictures on the PCN.

 

something is fishy here

how can they know exact time without Video evidence 

 

me thinks this is one of these MNPR jobbie

with the details taken from CCTV footage and the CCTV operator dobbin people in for a backhander to CEL.

which is against GDPR .

 

do not appeal to CEL whatever you do.

 

 

[brassnecked]

If it is someone from the club, club might also be liable jointly & severally for the breach with CEL.  that would be for later if they were very silly.

[FTMDave]

So, reasons so far that CEL's claim is pants

   - a prohibition, so no contract to break

   - no photographic proof of vehicle entering or leaving

   - no keeper liability (probably)

   - no planning permission (probably)

   - signage not illuminated at night (probably).

 

You could even, if you want, sue CEL for misusing your personal data.

 

 

[Keeping It Anonymous]

I've done some research and there would've been an ANPR system taking snaps of the driver's numberplate entering and exiting.

Whilst they can't prove the exact period of parking, nor what the driver did in the intervening period the court would likely conclude, on the balance of probabilities, the driver was 'parking' in breach of the signs. But CEL's PCN's are bad and they don't have to put photos on there is what I've read.

Also, called the social club and went to voicemail.

They open at 3pm so trying again then.

Called via a private number.

[dx100uk]

you need to prove the ANPR system exists

and where are you doing this 'research' 

your conclusion is also flawed.

[Keeping It Anonymous]

I actually asked this same question on another forum but I was reluctant to mention that in case the two forums are competitive: 

The advice on that forum was a bit different and at times contradicted what I was told on here.

For example, someone recommended sending a letter to them as no PoFA compliance, saying:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act.

You have also failed to give the invitation to keeper in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act.

You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc

First class post with a free certificate of posting from a post office

What do you think of this idea?

Also I hope you don't mind me posting on another forum too.

[dx100uk]

we never recommend entering into pointless letter tennis until/unless you receive a letter of claim.

 

simply tells them you are a mug that will crumble should they keep on at you.

 

can you get photos?

 

 

 

 

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Interesting, ok.

 

When you say "photos" do you mean photos of the signs in the car park?

I'll try to get some photos but might be tonight or tomorrow.

[dx100uk]

just type no need to hit quote

 

all their signs, their text inc any small print and the view from public highway

you must be able to see them before turning in

 

their positions

the cameras

their positions

[Keeping It Anonymous]

Appealed via postal letter today (1st Class Signed For).

 

Also emailed local MP. Also called social club but no response so voicemail been left.

 

Photos taken of social club parking signs below. WIll try to get a photo at night. Includes:

[dx100uk]

we said Do NOT to appeal

 

can you pop all the photos up one to each page of a multipage PDF please

read upload carefully.

 

[brassnecked]

Who did you appeal to the club or the flrrcer's, The fleecers would likely have invoiced you even if you had been delivering to the club.  drivers of liveried vans delivering for likes of DPD get tickets but  they don't get very far trying to chase them delivering isn't parking