Your parking ticket may be unlawful

[dudepop]

What a great read this thread is.

 

Ok i got a PCN the other day...i noticed a few points about the ticket could anyone advise on its validity...

 

1. No "date of issue"
   
2. Colour of vehicle not stated
   
3. Time of contravention stated as 9.53 not 9.53 am or pm
   
4. No Parking attendants signiture
   
5. PCN Notice number only 6 digits long, Shouldnt it be 9?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Guest xipetotec46]

Does it have a date of notice, as well as date of contravention, must have vehicle colour shown, must have signature or a squiggle will do.

barry

[dudepop]

There is no date of notice on the ticket, just 1 date. So do you think i should challenge the ticket barry ?

[Guest xipetotec46]

Absolutely yes!! it seeems to be non compliant in a number of aspects and if this is the case the Local Authority are issuing illegal PCN's, BTW which LA is it

Barry

[rogerebaker]

Be a bit careful here folks. There is a difference between what must by law be on the PCN and what the DOT state should be on it.

 

The RTA 1991 states

 

(3) A penalty charge notice must state—

(a) the grounds on which the parking attendant believes that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;

(b) the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;

© that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;

(d) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;

(e) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, a notice to owner may be served by the London authority on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;

(f) the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent.

The absence of things like the colour of the car, signature of TW do not mean it dosnt comply.

The guidance issued by the DOT to councils on how to design a PCN advised them that things such as colour should be included but it is only guidance and dosnt render the ticket automatically void.

[Guest xipetotec46]

• The absence of things like the colour of the car, signature of TW do not mean it dosnt comply.

• The guidance issued by the DOT to councils on how to design a PCN advised them that things such as colour should be included but it is only guidance and dosnt render the ticket automatically void.

 

I beg to differ, why put colour and PA signature on the PCN if they are not important, I have seen case law where the PCN appeal was upheld because wrong colour and also for no PA signature on. see below regarding explicitly shown this also means colour and PA signature, If I can find the relevant case law i will post it here, But try looking on pepipoo.com it is a more comprhensive forumn for this type of stuff with case law threads.

Barry

Justice Jackson, High Court August 2nd 2006

In particular, the judge held that if a PCN did not have the date of issue (or date of notice) as well as the date of contravention explicitly shown then the PCN becomes a nullity.

 

 

 

[Guest xipetotec46]

• The absence of things like the colour of the car, signature of TW do not mean it dosnt comply.

• The guidance issued by the DOT to councils on how to design a PCN advised them that things such as colour should be included but it is only guidance and dosnt render the ticket automatically void.

 

I beg to differ, why put colour and PA signature on the PCN if they are not important, I have seen case law where the PCN appeal was upheld because wrong colour and also for no PA signature on. see below regarding explicitly shown this also means colour and PA signature, If I can find the relevant case law i will post it here, But try looking on pepipoo.com it is a more comprhensive forumn for this type of stuff with case law threads.

Barry

 

Justice Jackson, High Court August 2nd 2006

In particular, the judge held that if a PCN did not have the date of issue (or date of notice) as well as the date of contravention explicitly shown then the PCN becomes a nullity.

[patdavies]

The rulling by His Honour Judge Jackson in the High Court in Barnet v Moses modifies this (by setting precedent) to add that there must be two dates. That of the notice and that of the contravention.

 

Also Roger, a TW cannot, under any circumstances, issue a PCN. Only a PA can issue a PCN. TWs can only issue FPNs

[rogerebaker]

Having the wrong colour is different from having no colour on the PCN.

 

My point is there is a difference between what is legally required ie in the 1991 RTA and what is guidance from the DOT.

 

The two dates was considered necessary by judge Jackson to make the PCN complient with the law. If the PCN only has one date you will win

 

If you go to ajudication and the only fault is there is no colour shown or its unsigned you will in all probability loose.

 

This is of course only my opinion but its based on a fair bit of research and personal experience

[dudepop]

Having the wrong colour is different from having no colour on the PCN.

 

My point is there is a difference between what is legally required ie in the 1991 RTA and what is guidance from the DOT.

 

The two dates was considered necessary by judge Jackson to make the PCN complient with the law. If the PCN only has one date you will win

 

If you go to ajudication and the only fault is there is no colour shown or its unsigned you will in all probability loose.

 

This is of course only my opinion but its based on a fair bit of research and personal experience

 

Thanks for the great response people, some good advice here. I shall contend the tickets validity on the grounds of No date of issue, no colour stated, no signitaure. I will keep you posted on any outcomes.

 

P.s.

Are there any guidelines on how to word my appeal letter?

[Guest xipetotec46]

P.S.

Are there any guidelines on how to word my appeal letter?

 

Try this.

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I am seeking the restitution of £XXX paid by mistake on xx/xx/xx by me. The mistake was induced by your actions where you placed on my car on xx/xx/xx a notice demanding this sum, the notice purporting to be a Penalty Charge Notice issued under the Road Traffic Act 1991. I attach a copy of this notice. This notice is actually not a Penalty Charge Notice as it does not conform to the requirements of the regulations in that it does not specify a date of XXXXXXXXX Since the notice is invalid it is a nullity, void ab initio with no legal force, non compliant and the demand for payment made by yoursleves on the notice is invalid. At the time I was not aware of this and was induced by its purported official character to make the payment to you for which I am now seeking restitution.

 

I now have the benefit of the ruling by Mr Justice Jackson of 02/08/06 in Barnet v Parking Adjudicator [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin) which now provides a definitive ruling on the requirements of a Penalty Charge Notice and the effects of a notice which fails to conform to the regulations. At para. 36 he states 'It seems to me that section 66 requires two dates to be stated on a PCN. These are the date of the contravention and the date of the notice' and at para. 41 'The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme, motorists become liable to pay financial penalties when certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise.' also on the PCN the Colour of the vehicle is worded as YELLOW when it is in fact Green, the colour of the vehicle can be verified by the relevant vehicle documents of which I hold and these can be confirmed by DVLA Swansea, another problem with the PCN which invalidates it on it's own is that the Parking Attendant has not validated the PCN by signing or initialing it, there is nothing there. the PCN is non compliant so does not conform to the 1991 Road Traffic Act 1991

 

The full transcript is availiable at

 

London Borough of Barnet Council, R (on the application of) v The Parking Adjudicator [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin) (02 August 2006)

 

If the amount for which I am seeking restitution is paid within 14 days of the date of receipt of this letter I am prepared to accept, without prejudice to my rights, restitution of the GBP XXXX alone without interest or costs. Take notice however that if this sum is not paid and I am required to take further action I will seek restitution of the sum plus interest from the date I made the payment plus costs, including those I have incurred to date.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

XXXXXXXXXX

[rogerebaker]

Dude

 

Are you sure this is a PCN issued under the 1991 RTA

 

should have it on the top of the PCN.

[dawny10]

I have read that a PCN cannot refer to a date of 'offence' (as it is not an offence but a contravention) but what about if a PCN states an 'Offence Code'?

 

It does state in words my contravention (i.e. Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours) and does describe it as a contravention. Lower down it just says 'Offence Code: 01'

 

I'm assuming they shouldn't refer to it as an offence code, but as this is extra information, would it invalidate the PCN?

[Guest xipetotec46]

Hi.

it could well invalidate the PCN as it could be deemed as prejudicial to you, as it should say Contravention Code.

But I refer you to the last reply by Rogerebaker

[dawny10]

Hi.

it could well invalidate the PCN as it could be deemed as prejudicial to you, as it should say Contravention Code.

But I refer you to the last reply by Rogerebaker

 

Thanks - it definitely is a PCN under the 1991 regs.

[rumour_75]

hi there, i got a ticket for parking outside a railway station on 16th jan.

 

The ticket is issued by NCP. (one of the yellow hand written ones)

its got an LL number.Then my cars reg.

The location just states "westcliff", its quite big town lol so where??

make; peugeot

model; (blank)

colour; navy blue (my car is actually silver/blue, even being colour blind you'd see it wasnt navy)

first seen at;15:00

Notice issued at; 15:05

by PA; 104255

on;16/01/07

then it has the details tick box.

 

Can i get my money back??

PS; it has a quick pay website that is cr@p and wont open the page too. total waste of time.

 

Any advice is very much appreciated.

 

Sarah

[rumour_75]

sorry just to add,

the legal bits on the top of the ticket are;

 

transport act 1962 amended by section 37 transport act 1981 schedule 4 london regional transport act 1984.

 

and my reg has 2 numbers in 1 box??

dont know if that makes a difference but i just hate PA's

[Guest xipetotec46]

sorry just to add,

the legal bits on the top of the ticket are;

 

transport act 1962 amended by section 37 transport act 1981 schedule 4 london regional transport act 1984.

 

and my reg has 2 numbers in 1 box??

dont know if that makes a difference but i just hate PA's

 

Need more details ie. date of contravention, which council, wording of how long you have to pay, try get a pic of both sides stick it on here.

ImageShack® - Hosting then post the URL back on here.

Barry

[seylectric]

Why? Surely the fact that the location isn't shown is enough to render the ticket invalid! It could have been anywhere in Westcliff!

[RichardM]

Issued at Westclife Railway Station and therefore issued under Railway Bye Laws not council rules.

 

I was wondering how lawful it was for NCP to be issuing PCN notices on railway property as well.

[rumour_75]

ok i think i got this right.

 

if you cant get it let me know

ps sorry its upside down lol

[TideTurner]

Hi all, I have a parking ticket from a private company in Leeds called UK P.A.O. Ltd.

 

When I telephoned them and asked whether they had a licence from the Local Authority I was told "I have only worked here for three months, and the bosses have told me not to answer any questions over the phone". I persisted and the lady said "Yes, we are licenced, but you will have to put your request in writing".

 

The noticed was placed under my bonnet by the windscreen wipers! I am considering a complaint that this could have caught fire when I drove off.

 

The notice looked official like this: -

 

PARKING PENALTY CHARGE UNAUTHORISED REMOVAL OR INTERFERANCE IS AN OFFENCE

 

 

Is there a template available to write back to them? They are claiming £3.00 a day until I respond (now up to £252.00).

 

Sorry, the above is in a bright yellow box.

[JonCris]

Oh dear another parking company claiming they have legal powers which they don't

 

Particularly like the bit about removal being an offence

 

The mention of the term penalty alone blows them out of the water

 

Report them to whoever they are claiming to represent pointing out their claims of legal powers of enforcement are not only unlawful but also illegal & that they are also liable for the conduct of these cowboys.

 

Write something along the lines

 

"please advise me under which statute you are empowered to enforce such parking 'fines'

 

I would take this opportunity to advise you that to claim or imply, as your ticket appears to do, that you are acting under statute when you are not is not only a criminal offence (conspiracy to obtain money by deception) but also exposes your company to civil litigation for compensation

 

See how they like them fishes

[fliz]

I've got one for you guys...

My PCN has no am or pm on the time (12:20) and my car was parked in a loading bay with times but no days. BTW they only gave me 6 mins from when they saw the car to when they issued the ticket.

 

Also my Payment slip part has just "Date:". Although it does say:-

 

Date: 28/01/2007

of issue

 

at the top of the letter

Do you think I have grounds to appeal? And if so on which grounds?

Please reply as I can't afford the £30/£60 and really didn't think I was parking illegally as it was a Sunday and assumed I could park in any bay.

[seylectric]

TideTurner, it's just another [problem]. DON't send any money as they have no legal right to claim it.

 

Personally I would bin it but if you prefer just send a letter asking to see a copy of their licence - they haven't got one I assure you and there certainly is no legislation entitling them to claim £3 a day in extra charges.

 

There is nothing to appeal, but even if the ticket was legal it's unenforceable because the law says it has to be FIXED to the windscreen, since it wasn't it's invalid. I would claim that you don't have the ticket, why be honest with thieving **** like this? They obviously can't prove otherwise, they won't have a photo of the ticket fixed to the windscreen since it wasn't!