NPOWER - Issues with billing/meter

[David2Prit]

So 2017.

i have calculated that it should have been £784.64 yearly total. Npower have charged £2114.16. Forgetting the backbilling commitment we have mentioned, they are still trying to charge us that. 

 

So if you take 2017 and 2018 yearly totals comes to £1578.02. 

So payment to date of new meter being installed was £1793. 

£214 difference. 

 

Npower at present state that we have an outstanding bill of £1386 which they have now started to send demands about. 

[BankFodder]

Thanks for this but you won't be surprised to learn that because of the break in continuity once again I find myself out of the loop.

Want to know is – if you sue them, what eagerness even for.

You legitimately owe the money from about November 2017 until now. How much do you legitimately owe (including money paid)

How much have you actually paid? Do you owe them money – or do they owe you money?
It would be nice to get this done without any more breaks because having to deal with ten-day breaks between responses is making things very difficult – for me anyway.

If you have overpaid them – then how much have you overpaid them altogether – meaning if you sue them how much would you be seeing them for?
 

[David2Prit]

Do you want the amount Npower say I owe, or my recalculated figures as Nov 17 is still showing as I used £338 that month? 

 

Of course I want to proceed with this, for the next 9 nights I’m good and will be on here to get this sorted and sent off for claim. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by David2Prit

[David2Prit]

Right since November 17 until now, we have paid 1655.07

Npower state since November 17 until now (pure monthly costs, not outstanding bill) £1619.89. 

 

But I do not believe 2017 November and December 17 figures have been amended. 

[BankFodder]

Well as I say, I've rather lost track.

However, what we need to know is if you have over paid them and if so how much – because that will be the value of the claim – assuming that you want to make a claim.

Presumably they think that you still owe them money so they will then counterclaim. You will then put in a defence to the counterclaim based on the back billing code which is predicated on valid readings and valid bills which in turn are predicated on the installation of properly functioning meters.

So what we need to know is over the entire period – from the beginning of the story how much have you paid them – and how much do you say you should have paid them. Subtract the latter from the former and presumably that gives you the amount that you are claiming from them.

[David2Prit]

Okay, just getting figures down and will edit as go along. 

 

Since feb 2017 until now, we have paid £2023.07

 

i believe that since start of all this, we should have paid £1906.52

 

so believe at present we have over paid by £116.55.

 

 

Npower believe at present we currently owe them £1293.91

Edited April 17, 2019 by David2Prit

[BankFodder]

I thought at the outset you said that this all started in November 2016

[David2Prit]

Just now, BankFodder said:

I thought at the outset you said that this all started in November 2016

I’ll pop in the above.

[BankFodder]

So on the basis of what you say, you are going to sue them for £116 .55p

You can expect them to counterclaim for £1293.91

Is that correct?

Secondly, you are relying on the back billing rules. If a judge for some reason rather says that you are entitled to rely on them, then what would be your fallback position. In other words, supposing that they are allowed to go back to November 2016, is the amount that they are claiming still correct – or have they still estimated wrongly – and if so why – and what would you say it would be the correct amount?

[David2Prit]

Won’t let me edit the above one. So can we delete that 

 

Below is from November 2016

Quote

 

Since Nov 2016 until now, we have paid £2238.49

 

i believe that since start of all this, we should have paid £2076.94

 

so believe at present we have over paid by £161.55.

 

 

Npower believe at present we currently owe them £1293.91

 

 

So in relation to your last message. Yes £116.55 would be the base claim.

 

Would also look at inconvenience to go on top, which I’ll figure out later, so not important. 

 

I can expect them to counterclaim for the amount stated (£1293.91). 

 

So fallback at present is that I still do not believe that they have estimated the 2017 bills correctly.

For year 2017 they believe that we used 2114.16 of energy. At which point I would want that adjusted to bring into line with what we have actually, used, and it will then show we have still overpaid. 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by David2Prit

[BankFodder]

So we need to know what is your fallback position then if the court says that you may not take the benefit of the back billing code in the way that we are interpreting it

[David2Prit]

Fallback position would be to ask judge to order Npower to correctly adjust the amounts quoted for 2017. 

 

Then once that has been adjusted it will still show an overpayment from ourselves. 

[David2Prit]

So on this basis, could you help me writing up the claim and I can stick it in tomorrow. Well, send the letter before action. 

[BankFodder]

I think that doing your initial claim is going to be pretty straightforward. You are simply going to claim £116.55 p being money paid under a mistake.

Then the fun is going to begin when they defend it and counterclaim for what they say is the outstanding balance. I think that will be useful because hopefully they will then detail the basis upon which they have arrived at that calculation and then you will be able to defend against their claim point by point.

I would suggest then that you defend on the basis of a contract which is implied by the back billing code and also by way of estoppel.

So your principal claim will be something like
 

Quote

The claimant is a customer of the defendant energy supplier – contract reference number XXX. The claimant seeks the return of £116.55 p paid to the defendant under a mistake.

Include a claim for interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts act 1984

 

That should be enough to wake up the sleeping Tiger. Do you think there is anything else to add?

And as with all of these things, don't forget there is a chance that you could lose in which case you may have to reach a formal agreement as to payment of the counterclaim plus your court fees.

Also, don't forget that if this then moves to a judgement against you in respect of the counterclaim, unless you can clear it within 30 days you will end up with a judgement on your credit file.

I'm just making sure that you understand the ramifications

 

[David2Prit]

Hiya, 

 

yeah understand and the ramifications if all goes wrong. Got the money if needs be to pay out, but I do think (well hope) a judge has sense and sees something is wrong. 

 

Obviously the outstanding balance is an eyesore and the main issue here, but that would be dealt with via the counterclaim. If they didn’t counterclaim though, where would that leave us?

 

although, would it be worth claiming for inconvenience or something along those lines. As they have taken the p....

Edited April 18, 2019 by David2Prit

[BankFodder]

If they don't counterclaim… This is an extremely good question and it hadn't even occurred to me that they might not counterclaim.

If they didn't counterclaim then I suppose it leaves you wrangling over £116 .55p – assuming that they defend. If they did defend then they would have to raise the issues of what they consider to be the outstanding money and so they would have to counterclaim. The only other very remote possibility that they simply don't respond and you get another judgement in default.

So far as inconvenience is concerned, this is a recoverable head of damage – but it's extremely difficult to persuade a judge that there has been a level of inconvenience which is measurable in money damages.

I think it would be best not to complicate things at the moment but to think about claiming for inconvenience by way of a counter to their counterclaim. However, maybe you could detail here what inconvenience you have suffered and what it has cost you in money terms.

[David2Prit]

1 minute ago, BankFodder said:

The only other very remote possibility that they simply don't respond and you get another judgement in default

 

That is my thinking, as they completely ignored the last one. Thinking as it’s for a small amount they may just leave it, and then still pursue the outstanding  separately. 

 

Guess if if they did that I could then bring another claim forward? 

 

Guess the inconvenience would be taking days off to have faulty meters installed. Wrongful information that put us in further hardship (of which I have the evidence), but if it isn’t worth it, then I’ll just leave it. Main aim is to get the above sorted once and for all. 

[David2Prit]

Could you help fill in this?

 

To whom it may concern,

 

Reference: Return of £116.55 overpayment

 

As it has not been possible to resolve this matter amicably, and it is apparent that court action may be necessary, I write in compliance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.
 

[Provide a summary of the facts of the dispute]
From you I am claiming [state what you want from the party you are claiming from]
I have calculated this sum [state how you have calculated the amount being claimed]
Listed below are the documents on which I intend to rely in my claim against you:

1. 
   

In accordance with the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct I would request that you provide me with copies of the following documents:

1. 
   

I can confirm that I would be agreeable to mediation and would consider any other system of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) in order to avoid the need for this matter to be resolved by the courts.
I would invite you to put forward any proposals in this regard.
[Alternatively you can set out details of any ADR scheme that you are prepared to use]
In closing, I would draw your attention to paragraphs 15 and 16 of the Practice Direction which gives the courts the power to impose sanctions on the parties if they fail to comply with the direction including failing to respond to this letter before claim.
I look forward to hearing from you within the next 28 days.
Should I not receive a response to my letter within this time frame then I anticipate that court action will be commenced with no further reference to you.
Yours faithfully,

[BankFodder]

There are a number of points in respect of your proposed letter.

Firstly, you are referring to the overpayment – "it has not been possible to resolve this matter…" As if this has been an ongoing issue. I'm not aware that it has. I'm not aware that you have had any dispute with them in which overpayment of £116.55 has been the subject. So in that respect, the reference you are making has no meaning.

Secondly, you are proposing to provide them with documents which you going to rely upon. I don't think this is the place to do it. This is something that would come after you see what their defence is and you are preparing for a hearing. You are trying to get them too much information to early on. You should provide them with a minimum of information at this point.

Your offering the mediation – they are not mature enough to be able to deal with this. If you want to get into mediation then you should say that for later. At the moment they will simply see it as another weak threat from somebody who doesn't really want to take legal action and who probably won't.

All the rest sounds a bit like an attempt to be a lawyer – (which is generally speaking not a good thing).

Also, you are offering them 28 days. This seems like a long time to me. A normal letter of claim would give only 14 days. As far as I'm concerned, 28 days is simply 14 more days in which to ignore you.

I think firstly you need to decide whether you want to raise the issue of the overpayment by writing to them and telling them that you have calculated that you have overpaid them and that you like the money back. Of course this will draw no response whatsoever or it will draw threat.

If you take that first step then I'm quite sure that you will be obliged to take the second step – which is to issue the letter of claim.

Of course you can simply issue the letter of claim without any other warning.

In which case:

Quote

reference number XXX
I have calculated that between the period of XXX Day and XXX date I have ever paid you £116.55 p I require that you return this sum to me within 14 days failing which I shall take action in the County Court to recover this money plus interest plus my court fees and without any further notice.

 

[BankFodder]

16 minutes ago, David2Prit said:

 

That is my thinking, as they completely ignored the last one. Thinking as it’s for a small amount they may just leave it, and then still pursue the outstanding  separately. 

 

Guess if if they did that I could then bring another claim forward? 

 

Guess the inconvenience would be taking days off to have faulty meters installed. Wrongful information that put us in further hardship (of which I have the evidence), but if it isn’t worth it, then I’ll just leave it. Main aim is to get the above sorted once and for all. 

 

If you have taken time off for them to replace faulty meters then this would definitely be recoverable. Do you have the dates and times? Also, please tell us about the wrongful information and the hardship it caused you

[David2Prit]

Sorry, in regards to the letter. Literally a template letter I’ve pulled from online. 

 

I do have dates, can find them on. 

 

and also the hardship was them telling us not to pay until issue resolved (got that in disclosure) so left it for a few months, then them turning around saying you shouldn’t have been told that and you’ll have to pay higher amount to catch up (got on voice recording). 

[BankFodder]

Yes, I think you may have mentioned this advice not to pay until the issue was resolved somewhere else in these discussions. Can you tell us a bit about that please. What date was that? Have you got anything in writing or simply a reference to it in the disclosure? Did you then resume paying despite that advice? Why?

The advice to you not to pay is very helpful to you. What particular issue were they referring to that needed to be resolved before you should start paying?

[David2Prit]

I have it in writing from npower saying not to pay. 

 

Started paying again when they mentioned that we should never have been given this advice. This was May 2017.

[BankFodder]

A shame you resumed paying.

In the letter which gave you the advice, which issue was it that they were referring to which needed to be resolved?

[David2Prit]

So this was when we were questioning the massive hike in our quarterly bill. First bill since the meter in feb 17 was installed. So it all tied into the initial issue that was ongoing until Nov 18.