Application Notice ??????????

[Curt]

I have gone through the various stages of trying to claim my bank charges back, and I've gotten to the point of actually going to court.

 

I went to see a solicitor today, and he told me that the reason LloydsTSB were defending the case was because the particulars of my claim were too vague. I subsequently went to my local county court in order to obtain an 'application notice' to amend my claim.

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me out as to how to fill this sheet in?

 

As I originally actioned my claim on the 'moneyclaim' website I didn't initially fill out an N1 form, so I will have to totally rewrite the particulars of my claim.

 

This whole process is very nerve wracking. Now, being told that I need to amend my claim is the icing on the cake lol :-|

 

Has anyone else been in my position? Any help at all would be gratefully received

 

Cheers! Curt

[Michael Browne]

What did you actually put in yor MCOL POc's?

 

If you copied them from here, there's no need to amend:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/34887-5-money-claim-line.html

[sjmg]

hi, i'm in a similar boat as curt- the court allowed a set aside because the bank claim that they didnt know anyhting about it until after the default judgement was passed. also 'the details were vague' and the judge (who was very nice by the way) suggested i resubmit my claim, with full itemised charges, despite the fact that my lba had them all on. so, i am also facing resubmitting- don't worry though, its just a delay. however i will do it the old fashioned way and not online, and send copies of the bundle to the bank and their solicitors (its lloyds btw) so that everyting is in place. i didn't use the template suggested when i made the original claim, wish i had. duh.

 

am downloading as much legal bumpf as i can to add to the claim, any advice from experienced voices would be welcome, i'm sure by curt too.

 

cheers

[Curt]

Thanks a lot Michael, that's a real help! I'll copy my amended claim from the link you gave me there. All I need to do is to find out how to fill in the 'Application Notice' form.

 

SJMG, what did the judge say to you when he said you should amend your claim? Were you issued with one of these application notice forms?

 

 

 

In response to Michael's question, I have pasted my original particulars of claim below.

 

"I am claiming the return of money taken by

the defendant in the way of charges over

the last 6 years plus the interest plus the

interest they have levied on those charges.

The bank's charges are a disproportionate

penalty and therefore unenforcable as they

are contrary to common law. Further, as a

disproportionate penalty they are invalid

under the Unfair (Contracts) Terms Act 1977

s.4 and under the Unfair Terms in Consumer

Regulations 1999. Para.8 and sch.2(1)(e).

In the event that the charges are not a

penalty then they are unreasonable within

the meaning of the Supply of Goods and

Services Act 1982 s.15.

I am claiming interest under section 69 of

the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of

8% a year from 16/10/00 to 02/10/06 of

£158.12 and also interest at the same rate

up to the date of judgment."

[sjmg]

hi curt,

 

the judge said that it was the fact that my mcol claim didn't contain the itemised charges, and that to avoid any lack of clarity that i should resubmit. he said the only issue relevent to the set aside was that a court should decide whether the charges are fair or not and to allow the bank to present their defence.

 

i'm not sure what the process is for resubmission, i'm going to call mcol tomorrow to ask them how i should proceed. my main issue at the moment is whether by resubmitting my claim i have to pay the fees again, and whether i am justified in adding that amount to the total of my claim. also, i did not claim for the interest, and am not sure if i can now or not.

 

cheers

[Michael Browne]

Essentially these are fine. Fore-shortened maybe (due to MCOL limitations) but not vague, and Lloyds are defending because they do so as a matter of course. I personally would not bother going to the trouble, expense and delay of submitting an amendment, but you're perfectly free to follow you solicitor's advice.

 

if you do there are expanded POC's for N1 here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html

[Michael Browne]

i'm not sure what the process is for resubmission, i'm going to call mcol tomorrow to ask them how i should proceed. my main issue at the moment is whether by resubmitting my claim i have to pay the fees again, and whether i am justified in adding that amount to the total of my claim. also, i did not claim for the interest, and am not sure if i can now or not.

 

 

Use N244 to amend your claim (£35 fee, unreclaimable), submit it with 3 N1 + 3 schedules. Court will return 2, one of which you serve/send to Lloyds and confirm to the court you have done so.

 

Download N244 here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/41901-form-n244-application-notice.html

[sjmg]

hi michael,

 

thanks for that. stupid question(s)- but should the n1 contain the original claim or shall i fill out another, new claim as my mcol claim was lacking in specifics, and is it part of section c supporting evidence or should that be just itemised charges, lba and any legal documents relating to the case, and what are the schedules? is there a template available that you know of to fill in the n244 correctly for this type of claim?

 

also, is it too late at this point to add the interest charges?

 

sorry for all the qs i just want to get this bang on the nose this time, i made mistakes first time round that have dragged this out.

 

your help greatly appreciated.

[Michael Browne]

N244

 

Top left hand box:

 

1. Tick c), without a hearing

 

Leave the rest blank

 

Part A

intend to apply for an order that:

amends my particulars of claim

 

because:

my particulars of claim did not state the statutory provisions on which my claim relies, nor did I submit a list of itemised charges

 

 

Part B:

 

tick 'evidance in part C' box

 

Part C:

 

Something like;

 

Please find attached to this application my proposed new particulars of claim, as well as an itemised schedule of charges for the amount claimed in respect of penalty charges levied by the defendant"

 

 

 

N1

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

 

1. The Claimant [has] [had] an account (XXXX Account No) with the Defendant which was opened on or around Date [and closed on or around date]

 

2. During the period in which the Account [has been] [was] operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

 

5. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

 

6. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £XXXX and any interest charged thereon;

 

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

[Curt]

That's brilliant advice Michael, thanks!

 

I've filled out my N244 form, and am now ready to complete my three N1 forms. I know what to write in the 'particulars of claim', however, there is also another box entitled 'brief details of claim'. I was wondering exactly what I should write in here? Is it just a shortened description of my 'particulars of claim'?

 

Cheers!

[Michael Browne]

Repayment of bank penalty charges.

[Glenn UK]

Couple of points, before filling out the N244 and sending off the fee, ask the defendant if they will agree to you amending your claim, i believe you can amend the claim by agreement which costs nothing.

 

As much as you may think it strange the defendant has nothing to loose from you amending your claim, if it comes to it you would have nothing to gain from agreeing to allow the defendant to alter their claim.

 

If either party refuses to agree all they would do is apply and pay the fee, so its worth a go.

 

Secondly if you have any defaults associated with these charges when you amend add them to your claim.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

[sjmg]

michael thanks, that's great.

 

can i claim the interest though, as the total claim amount will vary from the first- is that allowed or is it like starting a new claim?

 

cheers.

[Curt]

Cheers everyone! Thanks for the advice I'm now getting everything filled out now.

 

I'm making my claim via the small claims track. This way I am lead to believe that I won't have to pay the defendant's court fees etc if I lose. Therefore, should I put on my N1 claim form that I am claiming my £120.00 court fee back if I am not prepared to pay their court fee if i lose?

 

Cheer! Curt

[Glenn UK]

Curt

 

your particulars of claim should just include a line for costs.

 

Don't worry the court nor the other side will let you have anything your not entitled to.

 

With regards not being prepared to pay the other sides costs it doesn't work like that I'm afraid. If costs are awarded against you, you have to pay them.

 

However, in small claims court it is generally recognised that costs are not awarded unless someone has behaved unreasonably.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

[Curt]

Okay I can understand all that. But I was told that if it went through the small claims track that both parties just pay their own court costs and not each other's.

 

If I have to pay the defendant's court costs etc it might not actually be worth me going through with it in case I lose I don't think I'd be able to afford to pay their fees if I did lose.

 

Curt

[Michael Browne]

1.It's extremely unlikely you will actually go to court, although you have to be prepared for that evntuality

2. It's extremelyunlikely that you'd lose.

3. It's extremely unlikely that a judge would award costs against you

[Glenn UK]

Curt

 

Michael is right if i confused you I'm sorry, i was only trying to point out that you don't put that you're not prepared to pay the defendants costs on the N1.

 

Glenn

[Curt]

Cheers lads, I understand where you're coming from now

 

Don't apologise Glenn, I really appreciate the advice and you taking your time to help me. I really appreciate the help both of you have given me. Without your know how I wouldn't be able to do this properly.

 

Curt

[gregorious77]

hi i have just filled out these 2 forms too because i messed up my PoC now i know i have to pay £35 for the amendment but how do i pay it? send a cheque with the forms? if so who is it made payable too?

[Michael Browne]

Her Majesty's Court Service.

[Curt]

Hey Michael,

 

I've filled out my new N1 claim forms by copying what you wrote in your earlier post.

 

I was just wondering if you could tell me if this last part is correct and what it means. Tell me if I'm wrong, and I most probably am wrong, but does the following quote contradict itself?

 

"c) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

Interest persuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% - £xxx [enter interest total at date of claim] continuing at 8% until judgment or settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx;"

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Curt

[Michael Browne]

Well spotted, that man!!

 

This is the hard copy N1 version:

 

c) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

And this is the MCOL version:

 

Interest persuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% - £xxx [enter interest total at date of claim] continuing at 8% until judgment or settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx

No idea why the difference or how I came to post both,

[Glenn UK]

FWIW

 

you should realise though that the Court wont increase the interest beyond 8% even if they think you deserve it.

 

They can only reduce the amount of interest paid, so by only stating Sec69 in your POC you can only be awarded a max of 8% simple interest on your claim.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

[Curt]

Haha, I'm eagle eyed I am mate!

 

I've actually got the paper versions of the N1 form which I collected from the court. Can I write down the MCOL version on these paper N1 claim forms? I've written both of them on my paper forms, but I'll just have to tipex the one out

 

Cheers, Curt