Compliance stage collectica & speeding fine back in Jan**Refunded**

[salphy]

They said they respond to all correspondence within 7 days. So we should have known when we didn't receive a response in 7 days. I've stated that we had no way of knowing this, we didn't receive any correspondence following the two monthly payments and my initial complaint wasn't responded to within 7 days either. They've give me the name of the next manager to escalate the complaint to (this will be the third "level up" manager we've spoken to) I don't really know what more I can say to this next one! Do I just copy my original complaint? And add on everything that's happened since ie being called by the wrong name, being told that if we had of rang after 7 days to chase it up they would have commenced enforcement proceedings then (which I think she is now saying was a grammatical error) I've refused to send letters which is why she's told me to email but I don't really know what to say now. I asked for a copy of the complaints procedure as the parliamentary and health service ombudsman have said they can't get involved until the procedure is completed but they said they can't show me this. They haven't really answered my question about when it ends though. Will they just keep escalating me to the next manager?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mr XXXXX

 

 

 

Further to your email sent to this office today, I apologise for the grammatical errors I made in my letter of 05.05.2016 and any confusion it may have caused.

 

 

 

We are required to respond to no-complaints within a 5 working day period. You will not have received a response for the payments you made, as questioned in your email; payments are not dealt with as correspondence.

 

 

 

Your initial email was sent at 22:21 hours on the 25.04.2016 & an automated response will have been sent advising you that mailboxes are monitored within office working hours/working days, unfortunately due to the Bank Holiday and my own annual leave, your response was not dealt with until the 05.05.2016.

 

 

 

I am unable to furnish you with a recording of the call you had with Mrs XXXXXXX as our telephone calls are not recorded.

 

 

 

I have attached a complaint form for information,the complaint procedure guidance is an internal document for Her Majesty's Courts Service which I am not able to supply as requested on this occasion.

 

I can advise you of the process of which a complaint is dealt with, and that your email(s) have been treated as an offical complaint and recorded on the HMCTS Complaints System (ref. xxxxxxxxx) the same way the attached form would/will be dealt with. Once a complaint matter is recorded on the system a 10 days response time is generated which we have to adhere to.

 

 

 

As you wish to escalate your complaint to Ms XXXXX, it was advised that you should write to: Ms XXXX, Operations Manager, NCES, The Court House, XXXXXXXXXXX- alternatively if you are unable to supply such correspondence, an email should be directed to ST-Correspondence in the first instance marked FAO: Ms XXXXXXX and it will be forwarded to her immediately.

 

 

 

 

 

XXXXXXXXXX

 

Delivery Manager

 

HMCTS National Compliance & Enforcement Service

[Bailiff Advice]

They said they respond to all correspondence within 7 days. So we should have known when we didn't receive a response in 7 days. I've stated that we had no way of knowing this, we didn't receive any correspondence following the two monthly payments and my initial complaint wasn't responded to within 7 days either. They've give me the name of the next manager to escalate the complaint to (this will be the third "level up" manager we've spoken to) I don't really know what more I can say to this next one! Do I just copy my original complaint?

 

And add on everything that's happened since ie being called by the wrong name, being told that if we had of rang after 7 days to chase it up they would have commenced enforcement proceedings then (which I think she is now saying was a grammatical error) I've refused to send letters which is why she's told me to email but I don't really know what to say now.

 

I asked for a copy of the complaints procedure as the parliamentary and health service ombudsman have said they can't get involved until the procedure is completed but they said they can't show me this. They haven't really answered my question about when it ends though. Will they just keep escalating me to the next manager?

 

 

Complaining to the Parliamentary Ombudsman at this stage is really premature.

 

All that you need to be doing is concentrating on ONE important point and that is the discrepancy regarding the attachment to benefits.

 

With all magistrate court fines, there is an obligation to first attempt to make an attachment against earnings.

 

The fines officer took the correct step and applied to your husband's employer. Unfortunately that 'attachment' failed as he was no longer working for that particular employer. The Fines Officer then wrote to your husband to request up to date employment details. Your husband is adamant that he returned the employment details back to the court. He naturally assumed that the attachment would take effect from his next salary. This did no happen because before his next salary he instead received notification a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiff company.

 

When your husband complained he was told that he should have called the Fines Officer within 7 days to check whether or not his letter had arrived safely. It is this specific point that is what you need to be concentrating on.

 

Whilst writing, in the letter from the court (requesting employment details) did the letter specify a number of days by when the employment details needed to be supplied by?

 

Did the letter make any reference to what would happen if the employment details are not received by a specific date etc?

[salphy]

The letter is dated 16th march but would have been received a few days later because of post and he was working away at the time.

 

It says

If you leave this employment and become re-employed (he began with his new employer on the 28th December so had been there 3 months by the time they sent this letter and actually before he even got the fine), you must write to the court within 7 days. giving details of your new employer, your payroll number or occupation, your national insurance number and your earnings or what you expect to earn. If you do not do this you may be fined. (his letter was sent on 22/03/2016 so within 7 days)

 

Reserves terms

If this order fails, you must pay the outstanding balance yourself as directed. You will be given notice when these terms come into effect.

 

The next we heard was a notice of enforcement from collectica.

[salphy]

Sorry just to add, that is what is written at the end of the attachment of earnings order. We didn't get a letter after that requesting details because it had failed. They didn't tell us it had failed but we knew it would as the details were wrong which is why we sent the letter with the update.

[salphy]

He also contacted his old employer as he thought it was a fine from them as they didn't end of the best terms (he was 1 day short of his notice but working on the borders in Calais so would have spent more in petrol and the ferry getting there for the night from Cheshire than the 1 day pay deducted from his wages) but they confirmed it wasn't and said they'd also pass on his new employment details.

[Bailiff Advice]

The letter is dated 16th march but would have been received a few days later because of post and he was working away at the time.

 

It says

If you leave this employment and become re-employed you must write to the court within 7 days. giving details of your new employer, your payroll number or occupation, your national insurance number and your earnings or what you expect to earn. If you do not do this you may be fined.

 

His letter was sent on 22/03/2016 so within 7 days.

 

Salphy,

 

I hate to say this but I think that you may find that as your husband did not respond to the letter until the 22nd March, that this may well have exceeded the strict time limit of 7 days outlined in the letter regarding the attachment of earnings dated 16th March.

 

As I have said above, you need to wait to see what response comes back from the court.

[salphy]

But 16th - 22nd is only 6 days? It was sent early first class and they don't work weekends. He was working away and did it as soon as he returned.

 

They didn't give notice that the order failed and reserve terms came into effect before passing to collectica? Should I send a complaint based on this to the lady I've been told to escalate the complaint to at the central finance and enforcement unit?

 

I won't be getting another response from the court as I haven't sent anything yet. I didn't know what to say as so far everything I've said has just been dismissed.

 

Just so frustrating that we thought we'd done everything and it was all sorted and would be finished on payday a week later to be hit with a charge more than the actual balance and all they can say to us is you should have rang when you didnt hear from us within 7 days. We weren't expecting to hear from them! We just wanted them to take the money and that be the end of it! It's not like we weren't making payments at all, we only stopped when they said they were going to take the remainder. Who sends letters and then calls a week later to make sure theyve been received? There would be no point in sending letters!

 

Thanks for your help anyway x

[salphy]

Sorry was looking at the wrong month, it was sent first class early Tuesday 22nd so should have been received on Wednesday 23rd which would have been the 7th day x

[salphy]

Just to update had a letter today from who they told me to escalate the complaint to next (well someone else as she's on annual leave.)

 

She confirmed they didn't receive the letter but has apologised for the service we have received and that we weren't given the opportunity to pay the account before being passed on to the AEA. She said she does believe there was an error on their behalf (but doesn't say what specifically.)

However, she said once the account is passed to the AEA they have little to do with it/little control over it. She said they could have placed the account on hold until it had been investigated and a final decision has been made and then they could have recalled the account and allow us to pay direct. (which is what we asked for in the first place.)

 

She then said she's aware that we have already payed the AEA and are requesting a refund of the £75 costs incurred and so she has asked the AEA contacts manager to refund this and will keep us updated on their response.

 

Can the AEA now say no to the refund?

 

Thanks.

[Peterbard]

Just to update had a letter today from who they told me to escalate the complaint to next (well someone else as she's on annual leave.)

 

She confirmed they didn't receive the letter but has apologised for the service we have received and that we weren't given the opportunity to pay the account before being passed on to the AEA. She said she does believe there was an error on their behalf (but doesn't say what specifically.)

However, she said once the account is passed to the AEA they have little to do with it/little control over it. She said they could have placed the account on hold until it had been investigated and a final decision has been made and then they could have recalled the account and allow us to pay direct. (which is what we asked for in the first place.)

 

She then said she's aware that we have already payed the AEA and are requesting a refund of the £75 costs incurred and so she has asked the AEA contacts manager to refund this and will keep us updated on their response.

 

Can the AEA now say no to the refund?

 

Thanks.

 

What may happen is the authority would have to stump up their fee.

[salphy]

So either way we should get our money back now they've admitted to the error?

 

thanks for getting back to me

[Peterbard]

HI I have just re red your thread.

 

If the Court transferred the account to enforcement and a warrant was issued when it should not have been, then the debt should be recalled and the fee should "as far as you are concerned" disappear.

 

I dont know if the letter as far as reported says that exactly.

 

The passing of the warrant is a red herring I am afraid(i should have read you first post previously, apologies).

The argument as far as JKruse etc. is whether the individual agent has to perform all the functions required to enforce nothing to do with the transfer of the warrant, this is not at issue and is largely due to a misinterpretation of the regulations.

[salphy]

Hi, sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean. The letter says:

 

Dear MR XXXXXX

 

Further to your email sent 14th May for the attention of Ms XXXXXX. I have had the complaint forwarded onto me as she is currently on annual leave and I would like to address the issues that you have raised in relation to Fine Account XXXXXX

 

I note you state that you wrote into the enforcement unit stating that you had left your employment and giving us new employment details. I can confirm that this letter was not received and as a result further enforcement action occurred on your account. It is our normal practice when an account falls into arrears for us to sent this onto Authorised Enforcement Agents (AEA), which is the practice followed in this matter. I do apologise that you were not given an opportunity to pay this account prior to this.

 

Once the account is with the AEA then we are limited as to our involvement in it, however we do have the opportunity to hold the account until the matter has been fully investigated and a final decision has been made as to whether there had been any administration error. I do believe in this instance that there was an error on our behalf, and we would have recalled this back for you to pay direct. I am aware that you had already payed to AEA and are no seeking a refund of £75 costs incurred.

 

I have requested with the contracts manager of the AEA for this to be refunded and I will keep you updated with their response.

 

In relation to the reserve terms on the AEO letter, this is a standard letter that is sent out for every attachment to earnings order. Reserve Terms only apply when the order has been made as a direct result of a court hearing, not as an administration procedure, and I appreciate that the paragraph in the letter does not state this clearly.

 

I would again like to apologise for the service that you have received and hope that my response now resolves those issues for you. I will remain in contact with you when I hear back from the AEA.

 

I enclose also details of our complaints procedure as requested.

 

So from this can the AEA now refuse the refund? Or will we eventually get our money refunded regardless, either from the AEA or from the enforcement unit?

 

Thanks

[Peterbard]

Yes thats just the ticket.

 

You should get any fees taken by the EA back.

[salphy]

Brill! Fingers crossed.

Thanks

[salphy]

Quick update - just noticed the £75 fee was refunded on 23/05/16 by Marston group thanks everyone for your help!

[ploddertom]

That's good to know, bet you are pleased.

 

Thank you for coming back & letting us know.

[AndyOrch]

Well done salphy...thread title amended to reflect the outcome.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Peterbard]

Salphy great.

Just goers to show that the system can work when there is a mistake and the grievance is genuine.

Good for you in sticking to your guns.