bailif on doorstep at 9pm - magistrate fine for unpaid car tax

[StarkParkingMad]

Hi everyone,

 

sorry I'm posting a lot.

 

Bailiff from Marstons arrived at doorstep at 8:57pm says I have to pay £797 for unpaid car tax. i ghuess it relates to a car I sold last year. I never received a magistrates summons.

 

he says I have to pay tonight or he has to enter the property and document belongings etc...

 

what can/should I do?

 

thanks so much

[merlin100]

Just remember he needs a Warrant of Entry to enter your home without your consent. Don't let him in voluntarily or the games up, he's got you then. Make sure all the doors and windows are locked so he can't gain entry and talk to him through the locked door.

Did you get anything from DVLA? If not, you need to find out why not. Same with the magistrates court.

[StarkParkingMad]

Just remember he needs a Warrant of Entry to enter your home without your consent. Don't let him in voluntarily or the games up, he's got you then. Make sure all the doors and windows are locked so he can't gain entry and talk to him through the locked door.

Did you get anything from DVLA? If not, you need to find out why not. Same with the magistrates court.

 

Thanks for the reply. I haven't seen the warrant of entry. He put a removal notice through the door saying they attended at 20:20 even thoguh on the phone he said it was 20:57 which is shown on their body cam.

[AndyOrch]

The court must send you a copy of the collection order which should tell you the following information:

 

the amount of the fine, any costs or compensation order;

whether you will be treated as an ‘existing defaulter’;

if the court has made an attachment of earnings order or deduction from benefits order;

what the payment terms are on the fine;

where to pay the fine; and

how to contact the fines officer.

If you cannot afford to pay, you can apply to the fines officer for:

 

further time to pay;

to pay by instalments; or

to change the instalments you have been ordered to pay.

If the fines officer refuses your request, you can appeal to the magistrates’ court within ten days. This should lead to a hearing with the magistrates.

 

https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/factsheets/Pages/magistratescourtfines/magistratescourtdebt.aspx

[StarkParkingMad]

Thanks but unfortunately I saw this too late. it was a case of 'pay or we enter ad charge the lock smith to you' so unfortunately I paid, but I did so using this month's rent.

 

I explained to him that I was on ESA due to health problems and I offered to pay in installments but he said "at this stage in the proceedings" he wasn't there to offer payments plans or to even collect the payment, although to do so would end the action.

 

It just seems crazy that the law allows them to show up so late in the evening, when you can't easily get advice, and demand payment immediately.

 

So do you think I can appeal?

 

thanks for allll your help

[dx100uk]

so was this your ticket

or the person you sold the car on too

and they've not updated DVLA

[and neither did you upon sale?]

 

 

dx

[lookinforinfo]

If you have received no previous information about this it may be that it is going to the wrong address. You should check with DVLA and the Mag Court to see what address they have,

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi everyone,

 

Bailiff from Marstons arrived at doorstep at 8:57pm says I have to pay £797 for unpaid car tax. i ghuess it relates to a car I sold last year. I never received a magistrates summons.

 

he says I have to pay tonight or he has to enter the property and document belongings etc...

 

By the time a personal visit takes place there should have been a fair amount of previous correspondence.

 

Firstly, a summons should have been issued.

 

The next document would be Notice of Fine/Collection Order. This would come from the Magistrate's Court

 

If payment is not made and final 'warning' notice called a Further Steps Notice is sent by the court.

 

If full payment (or an appeal) is not made within 10 'working days' a warrant would be issued.

 

The next document would be from Marston Group and would be entitled: Notice of Enforcement. A statutory fee of £75 is charged at this stage.

 

 

Did you receive any of the above documents?

[Bailiff Advice]

 

It just seems crazy that the law allows them to show up so late in the evening, when you can't easily get advice, and demand payment immediately.

 

Allowed to visit between 6am and 9pm.

[lookinforinfo]

One beef I have is that when bailiffs know that correspondence has gone to a different address they still come crashing in like the proverbial ton of bricks.

 

I guess they are trying to frighten one into paying up before the debtor realises that they haven't had the statutory notification and the warrant is not for the address at which the bailiff is calling.

[StarkParkingMad]

thanks all.

 

Yes I was concerned about the warrant.

he wouldn't show it to the person at the property

(I was away, as they are making some adjustments to deal with my physical restrictions).

 

He said he needed to keep it until the police arrived.

 

I asked him to take a photo and email it to me but he wouldn't

 

I think it's possible that my license is still registered to my old address

- as I said I had a lot of health problems and completely forgot.

 

I know that's on me, but as you say, they were obviously able to find me to show up,

but not to serve the papers.

 

Anything I can do?

 

Is there a way I can get the money back and pay on appeals?

 

who should I call, as I don't have much info about it all.

 

Thanks all, I'm still shaking from it all, so out of left field

[dx100uk]

nothing to do with your driving licence.

 

 

when you sold the car you should have retained & sent off the little slip from the V5C

 

 

if you didn't do that

nor update your licence change of address

 

 

then if they didn't get you on this ticket

you'll prob get fined by the DVLA on licence and vehicle failure to notify change of address as well

[Bailiff Advice]

Thanks for the reply. I haven't seen the warrant of entry. He put a removal notice through the door saying they attended at 20:20 even thoguh on the phone he said it was 20:57 which is shown on their body cam.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, there is no requirement to provide a 'warrant of entry'.

 

This is because, with Magistrate Court fines the warrant of control that issued to the enforcement agent permits him the right to force entry. Given the amount of confusion regarding this subject I will be providing more information over the weekend. I will also provide a copy of the HMCTS Forced Entry Procedure. I did provide a link last year but it seem that many links disappeared when the forum had a computer problem a few months back.

[Bailiff Advice]

 

Yes I was concerned about the warrant. he wouldn't show it to the person at the property

 

He said he needed to keep it until the police arrived.

 

I asked him to take a photo and email it to me but he wouldn't

 

The warrant of control is not a document addressed to you and the enforcement agent is not under an obligation to provide a copy to you.

 

In November 2014 Her Majesty' Courts & Tribunal Services (HMCTS) received a series of questions about 'warrants of control' (in relation to court fines).

 

For ease of reference and to simplify their reply, I have broken down their response into separate headings:

 

 

When is a distress warrant/warrant of control 'generated'?

 

"It is not necessary to generate a distress warrant at the time of its issue; the relevant details can be produced (and provided to the debtor) subsequent to its issue (or indeed subsequent to its execution) but such relevant details should be recorded at the time of issue"

 

Who issues the distress warrant/warrant of control?

 

"Designated Fines Officers have the power to issue Distress Warrants/Warrants of Control under schedule 5 of the Courts Act 2003, a court hearing is not required for this sanction to be issued".

 

Is the bailiff/enforcement agent required to have the warrant in his possession?

 

"It is not necessary for the CEO or the AEA to have the distress warrant in his possession when levying the distress. The legislation simply requires a written statement to be shown to the debtor on demand. In addition, the CrimPR requires arrangements to be made for the debtor to see the warrant if he so requests".

 

Does the distress warrant/warrant of control need to be a paper document?

 

"The references in the above CrimPR to a “warrant” are not necessarily to a paper document, but can include an electronic version".

 

Does a warrant need to be produced?

 

"It is not necessary for a formal “warrant” to be produced; what is of**importance is that specific information must be recorded, by some means, at the time the warrant is issued. In particular, the legal basis on which the warrant is issued (for example, a record of the decision authorising the issue of a warrant (made by the court or the fines officer) and when that decision was made). In addition, the information required by CrimPR 52.7(1) should be recorded".

 

Recording the date and time that the warrant was received.

 

"The reference to the CEO or AEA recording on the warrant the date and time at which it is received (rule 52.7(2) can be satisfied by electronic means. Assuming the request to execute is sent to the CEO or AEA electronically there will be an automatic electronic record of when it was received".

 

Requesting to see the distress warrant/warrant of control.

 

"As regards the position where the debtor asks to see the warrant, what rule 52.8(2) of the CrimPR envisages is that the debtor will be taken to the relevant office and shown the relevant details on the computer screen. Alternatively, a copy of the electronic data held can be printed and provided to the debtor or the details replicated in some other documentary form (whether it be entitled a “warrant” or not).

 

"What is of importance, is, as stated above, that the requisite information is already held. That information can then be subsequently shown to the debtor/replicated when a request is made by the debtor".

[StarkParkingMad]

Thanks again for the help.

I'm not sure where I stand at the moment.

 

 

I need to get most of that money back so that I can pay my rent.

So can I appeal that I had no opportunity to pay in instalments, despite offering to do so?

 

 

As I said, I'm on benefits and have health problems.

I'm going through quite a tough patch and have been for a while,

do I don't know if another bailiff will show up soon asking for something similar,

which I won't be able to pay.

 

Thanks for the help, I really don't know what I would do if not for your amazing people.

For the avoidance of doubt, there is no requirement to provide a 'warrant of entry'.

 

This is because, with Magistrate Court fines the warrant of control that issued to the enforcement agent permits him the right to force entry. Given the amount of confusion regarding this subject I will be providing more information over the weekend. I will also provide a copy of the HMCTS Forced Entry Procedure. I did provide a link last year but it seem that many links disappeared when the forum had a computer problem a few months back.

[Bailiff Advice]

 

Anything I can do?

 

Is there a way I can get the money back and pay on appeals? Who should I call, as I don't have much info about it all.

 

Yes there is and the procedure is quite simple.

 

You need to apply to the court for a Statutory Declaration. You have 21 days from 'becoming aware' (of the court fine) to file a Statutory Declaration. Day one was yesterday. You now have to make enquiries to find out which court the case was heard in and the date. You should be able to get this information from Marston Group. You need to check whether you update DVLA when you sold the vehicle and dates etc.

 

Any questions, please do post back. Given the amount of queries that I have received overnight I will probably not be able to reply until much later day (although others on here can assist) but please do not panic as you have another 20 days to file a Statutory Declaration.

[StarkParkingMad]

Ok, thanks so much for all your help. It was so frightening and at such a time when it's hard to get any advice. I really appreciate it. I'll try and get as much info as I can then come back. Thanks again

[neil_tp]

For the avoidance of doubt, there is no requirement to provide a 'warrant of entry'.

 

This is because, with Magistrate Court fines the warrant of control that issued to the enforcement agent permits him the right to force entry. Given the amount of confusion regarding this subject I will be providing more information over the weekend. I will also provide a copy of the HMCTS Forced Entry Procedure. I did provide a link last year but it seem that many links disappeared when the forum had a computer problem a few months back.

 

It doesn't give immediate force entry, the EA has to go back to get a warrant of "forced entry.

[StarkParkingMad]

Thanks again.

 

So, can I just ask, now that the urgency is off. What should/would/wouldn't have happened?

 

To recap. I wasn't at home as I am staying with a friend while they make some adjustments to the property to allow for the fact that I have physical restrictions (due to severe back problems) The LL had an agent in the house, a young woman.

 

This Bailif shows up at 3 minutes to 9pm. saying he has a warrant and will be coming in to check what's in there. he won't tell the agent what it's about.

 

I call him, he tells me it's about unpaid car tax and he's there on a magistrates warrant and as such it is a criminal matter not a civil one. he is there only to gain entry. I offer to pay in installments but he refuses and says at this stage of the proceedings, he's nopt their to offer a payment plan, or even to take payment, although taking payment will stop the action. He gives me some time to call people to see if I can raise the funds. at which point I post here.

 

He drops in a removal notice (saying he stopped by at 20:20. When I contest that, he says that's when they 'popped by' the first time)

 

At about 22:00 he goes to the door again, saying they are going to get some more colleagues and gain entry. The agent is terrified. I call him again. he says they are going to gain entry and will call a locksmith, which will be expensive at this time of night and will be charged to me. I again offer an installment which is refused. I point out that calling at this time denies me any real chane of seeking proper advice, raising funds or appealing to the court. he says that, at this stage, even an appeal wouldn't stop action anyway and his orders from the court say the action has to be completed tonight, either by entry or payment. I ask him to send a picture of the warrant to my e-mail, which he refuses, he also says he will show it to the agent, but only when the police arrive and they are making entry

 

Finally at 22:20ish, I call back and tell him I can use my rent money to pay him. Which I do and he leaves.

 

So. what should I have done differently? and is there anything in all that that can be useful to me in an appeal? I need that money back or I won't be able to pay my rent.

 

thanks again all so much.

[StarkParkingMad]

Hi all,

 

I went to the court to get a statutory declaration, but they said they don't give them out, people come witht hem. I've googled it, but can't find which one I should use. Could somebody help please? Thanks

[dx100uk]

should have search here:

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?165753-MAGISTRATE-COURT-FINES.-Template-of-a-Statutory-Declaration.

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

It doesn't give immediate force entry, the EA has to go back to get a warrant of "forced entry.

 

 

During office hours it should be run past court staff to confirm we are ok to continue but this is just a phone call and no other paperwork is issued.

Out of office hours, we continue as we see fit.

We do NOT need some separate order to force entry.

Why do people still believe this is the case.

If you don't know what you are talking about, stop talking. Before you get someone into trouble.

 

BA, as usual, has given the debtor the correct advice on steps to follow to sort this out.

[Bailiff Advice]

should have search here:

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?165753-MAGISTRATE-COURT-FINES.-Template-of-a-Statutory-Declaration.

 

Thanks for posting the link DX. I had not realised that I had not updated this information to take into consideration changes made last October with regards to how the courts now deal with Statutory Declarations.

 

I am not sure why but I have been literally inundated with enquiries since yesterday afternoon so will hopefully update the information over the weekend.

[Bailiff Advice]

Hi all,

 

I went to the court to get a statutory declaration, but they said they don't give them out, people come witht hem. I've googled it, but can't find which one I should use. Could somebody help please? Thanks

 

I should be able to reply later today. What you are supposed to do is to make an appointment with the Magistrate Court for them to hear the Statutory Declaration. Can you call the court this afternoon for an appointment. Once you have done that, you have complied with the 21 day period.

[StarkParkingMad]

Thanks all,

sorry I didn't see the linked article,

thanks for pointing me to it.

 

 

I need to get some information from the bailiff to fill out the declaration,

but I'll wait until it is updated to make sure I know exactly what I need.

I think the court will be in Basingstoke.

I am in Winchester.

I have no car now.

 

 

I receive ESA because of severe back problems and some psychological issues.

 

 

Will I need to attend a hearing?

I have pretty severe social anxiety, amoungst other things, so it's not great.

 

 

As the Bailif came on the 6th, and that was the first time I became aware of the issue,

I should have until the 27th to make an appointment, right?

So If I call for an appointment on Monday, that's within the time?

 

Thanks for all the help everybody