Housing Benefit overpayment please help

[glw68]

I have searched the forum for this topic and from what I have seen have become very worried. I have realised that I have been getting paid more Hb for a couple of years than I should have. I always informed tax credits of my income and i automatically got a change of financial circumstances letter from Local council which unfortunatley didn't read thoroughly.i thought the Hmrc and council offices linked now anyway (my naivety)as received these notices. It appears by my layman's reckoning i am over paid by about 20 per week maybe less in previous years which will obviously accumulate over couple years. Of course fully appreciate i have been overpaid and will need to repay. Worried sick it may be classed as fraud and of prosecution. Also they randomly paid me an extra 100 in my hb a week ago which alerted me too look at notice. Again think this was due to tax cr messing a payment as my16 yr old staying in ft education and said something about system recalculate s on 1 Sep. But they have now righted my tax cr. Just scared I will end up in court. I today went in council office told them all above supplied them with p60 s pay slips etc. They said they don't appear have anything since 2011 on my record though sure must have as have record me coning in. And also they said very surprised I'd not been asked to provide up date pay slips. Anyway i have found evidence of pay back to 2011 popping that in. Supplied back to 2013 today. I'm working out on worse case scenario its over 2000 !! Just no idea how this will go. Is all i can do is wait. Thanks for any help

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I think as long as you let them know there's been an overpayment and reach an agreement on paying it back, you should be OK. It's best if it comes from you rather than them finding out.

 

Other people here know more than I do, they should be along over the course of the day.

 

My best, HB

[Shoelover]

You are doing the best thing - you are putting your mistake right. The very fact that you are doing this supports your explaination that this was a genuine mistake.

 

Without wishing to scare you, yes you have committed the offence of failing to report a change in circumstances. What if anything the council do about it depends on your local councils policy & if they have had their fraud staff transferred to DWP yet!

 

It's done now & you have done all you really can to put it right. Try not to worry too much. Given your voluntary disclosure it's very likely they will just recover the money. If you are interviewed by fraud staff, ensure you point out that as soon as you realised you took steps to right it.

[id6052]

based upon the fact that you have made a voluntary disclosure, they are unlikely to take any action other than expecting you to repay the overpayment

[jason2723637]

yeh the above post by id6052 is right form my experience as long as they overpaid you they just want to you to repay the overpayment I think they just claw it back from subsequent HB payments they make to you ...but they do not take fraud action over sumin that's an error rather then someone doing the fraudulent action with intent

[Shoelover]

yeh the above post by id6052 is right form my experience as long as they overpaid you they just want to you to repay the overpayment I think they just claw it back from subsequent HB payments they make to you ...but they do not take fraud action over sumin that's an error rather then someone doing the fraudulent action with intent

 

It's not that cut & dried. It's unlikely that they wound because of the voluntary disclosure but people can be & are prosecuted even if intent isn't shown.

[jason2723637]

actually you are right shoe in a way as that is what happened to me but the reason I said otherwise is this - with me they only took to me to court after I failed to get back to them they initially only wanted the HB overpayment paid back paid cos I dropped out of JSA but was still being paid HB and due to my circumstances at the time I couldn't like the OP respond to the initial letter forgetting about it and did not get their more subsequent letters wanting me to pay back as soon after I had moved from that address by which time my HB had been stopped and only then when I did not pay them back, respond to them and/or get into an arrangement of paying them back didi they send I found out later to take me to court (they said in the original letter I think to re-apply for HB I assume then they would claw it back from what they paid me) and i only got into the situation of being over paid cos I also forgot to mention change in circumstance ie I had gotten signed off JSA but forgot to let the council know they then got that flagged up on their side and after about couple years I didn't know about it but got a letter out of the blue saying I had got to go court over it cut long story short in support of what shoe is saying yes I did go court and it was over 2 k over pay but they said it not fraud (though it was called benefit fraud officially) and just got to pay it back is all how that ended ie a conditional discharge ...in my case I didn't respond and moved but in the OP's favour they made a voluntary disclosure and agree with most it seems highly unlikely and illogical for them to take it to court seeing they only did that to me after they in writing said they would cos I did not respond as I said I moved but later got copies of the letter I had missed from them and found out that way.....this is why I heard that HB over pay classed as benefit fraud but due to errors not fraud by intent was meant to be dropped totally as a conviction though obviously this has not happened yet.

 

either way I know my circumstances are different form the OPs so don't want to worry them but think it from my knowledge at least to be unlikely to be taken to court

[Shoelover]

I am a fraud investigator & have been for a long time. For a conviction under section 112 no intent need be shown. Only that there was a change in circumstances which would affect the benefit & that the customer failed to report it. Intent/ dishonesty need only be shown for the more serious 111 offence.

[obiter dictum]

Quick question

 

Would it be in the public interest to prosecute though if no intent was intended or personal gain??. People do make mistakes, different educational levels, disability etc

 

From what i know most Local Authorities have a bench mark of 2k before they consider prosecution. And i am talking of personal experience

 

I always say honesty is the best policy, as long as you are straight with the council investigator and do not try and hide anything i find them reasonable

 

Honest mistakes do happen

 

 

Edited September 27, 2015 by obiter dictum

[obiter dictum]

I will pose another question:

 

Fraud is covered under the Theft Act 1968 (I know of the Fraud Act 2006)

 

Basic definition of theft.

 

(1)A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly.

 

Yet Section 2

 

(1)A person’s appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest—

(a)if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person; or

(b)if he appropriates the property in the belief that he would have the other’s consent if the other knew of the appropriation and the circumstances of it; or

 

 

So it all comes down to how you define Dishonesty and Intent

 

And yes i am aware of strict liability offence

 

 

I am no solicitor but that is how i read it

Edited September 27, 2015 by obiter dictum

[Shoelover]

Usually people are prosecuted using the social security administration act.

 

As for dishonesty, that's a complex one. The Ghosh test is applied usually to establish if the person is dishonest or not.

[obiter dictum]

But the Ghosh test will be for the crown court, most of these offences will be summary and in the magistrates

 

Another quick question just for my own knowledge base

 

Is the Social Security Administration Act 1992 used anymore??

Will it not be the Welfare Reform Act 2012 now??

[Shoelover]

The Ghosh test can be applied on any offence where dishonesty is an issue. The either way offences can & often are heard in magistrates courts.

 

The SSA is the usual legislation used, occasionally the Fraud Act. As far as i know the WRA doesn't create any offences & is more concerned with the administration of it all & legal gateways. It really fire depend where you live- some councils have a prosecution threshold of £2k, busier ones might not even look at a case under £5k. Some are now in SFIS areas, some are yet to roll out.

 

 

O/p this talk of courts &'offences is general & in no way aimed at you!!!

[obiter dictum]

I was always under the impression the Ghosh test was a matter put to the jury in deciding dishonesty, The judiciary plays no part in it except directing the jury as to the characteristics of the test

 

I am not having a dig at you as i am truly interested in confiirmation on such matters for my studies, and this thread is linked with the subject matter

[Shoelover]

I have heard the Ghosh test referred to at mags. The same principals apply.

 

If you are genuinely interested this is a great article

 

 

http://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/resources/welfare-benefit-fraud/

[obiter dictum]

Thanks for the link, it is appreciated

 

I will leave you in peace now

[Shoelover]

Thanks for the link, it is appreciated

 

I will leave you in peace now

 

You are more than welcome!! I really don't mind in the least. X

[glw68]

I am a fraud investigator & have been for a long time. For a conviction under section 112 no intent need be shown. Only that there was a change in circumstances which would affect the benefit & that the customer failed to report it. Intent/ dishonesty need only be shown for the more serious 111 offence.

 

Thank you all for your replies. I'm seriously not sure if I feel better or worse. I feel that reading this that I'm going to end up in court. I don't understand all these different sections. I know for sure I'm not going to sleep well. Yes I have not notified of a change that has now seemingly amounted to over 2k I'm summising. But i have adnitted this and gone in if my own accord nobody has yet contacted me. I think though I already have myself hung drawn and quartered for my mistake. Do you think I should seek legal advice but I don't think can afford a solicitor. Should i hang fire and see what they say once they asses the overpayment. Thanks on advance

[obiter dictum]

You do nothing until they contact you

 

I was once in your position for an honest mistake and had sleepless nights. The fraud teams are after the big guys, multiple identities and claims. You will probably be made to pay it back if you are honest, upfront and accept you made a mistake

 

I paid mine back at £5.00 a week by standing order and that was the end of it

 

You will not end up in court unless they feel it is really necessary, and i am of the opinion this is not one of those times a prosecution is needed.

[glw68]

You do nothing until they contact you

 

I was once in your position for an honest mistake and had sleepless nights. The fraud teams are after the big guys, multiple identities and claims. You will probably be made to pay it back if you are honest, upfront and accept you made a mistake

 

I paid mine back at £5.00 a week by standing order and that was the end of it

 

You will not end up in court unless they feel it is really necessary, and i am of the opinion this is not one of those times a prosecution is needed.

 

Thank you so much for you prompt reply. It's just so worrying when I realised this I just knew I had to act quickly. In fact it was the overpayment they made me of two separate 2 weekly payments. They paid me around £100 more twice yet the benefit decision letter says I only have an overpayment of about £50. I am totally confused. Anyway I realised after digging out my old p60s that my net income us incorrect abd hence I went in and took in as much paperwork as I could. Wrote a statement saying believe my income shows incorrect and therefore think I have been overpaid. It's just the timescale and amount that worries me. In some ways i just feel like if this gets sorted I would rather struggle than carry on claiming for fear of making any future oversight.

[obiter dictum]

You said it "Oversight"

 

Your conscience is clear and it was not a deliberate attempt to deceive

 

The Fraud team will see that and make their decision on that

 

Please do not concern yourself on what mght be, or worst case scenario, they very rarely happens

[Shoelover]

Yes... To echo that. It's very possible that they will just recover the overpayment.

You don't know that it's over 2k yet. Additionally some councils have a policy not to prosecute people that come forward of their own volition,

Don't panic. If they invite you in for an interview then get a solicitor.

[glw68]

You said it "Oversight"

 

Your conscience is clear and it was not a deliberate attempt to deceive

 

The Fraud team will see that and make their decision on that

 

Please do not concern yourself on what mght be, or worst case scenario, they very rarely happens

 

I know I've done all i can so far and that gives me a little relief

[glw68]

Yes... To echo that. It's very possible that they will just recover the overpayment.

You don't know that it's over 2k yet. Additionally some councils have a policy not to prosecute people that come forward of their own volition,

Don't panic. If they invite you in for an interview then get a solicitor.

 

Thank you . Yes I guess coming forward is hopefully my saving grace. I really wish they had a system in place that you had to at least produce pay slips or p60 annually and if overpayment made was clawed back and if not provided payments were stopped. They did indicate they were surprised I had not been reviewed during this period. Maybe its because they seen regular change in circs due to my tax credits changing. Either way still the onus was on me. Appreciate your time to reply to me

[Shoelover]

I couldn't agree more... Getting rid of annual reviews was a huge mistake