@morrisons Euro Car parks PCN received - best course of action?

[aburobert]

On Saturday 25/4/15 my wife received a PCN for overstaying at the Morrisons car park in High Wycombe

asking for a payment of £90 reduced to £50 if paid within 14 days.

The 'offence' took place on 20/4/15

 

They have cameras that record entry and exit times and 'helpfully' provided pictures of her number plate.

 

I did not have time to do anything on her behalf so pointed her in the direction of CAG

where she did a fair bit of reading and research as she felt the penalty they are imposing

is totally disproportionate particularly as she was in Morrisons spending a lot of money on groceries

and then having lunch in their restaurant with friends -

probably the reason for the overstay! (Women can gossip for any awfully long time it seems).

 

she wants to respond with the following:

 

"Dear Sir or Madam

 

re: PCN number XXXXXX/XXXXXX

I have received your parking invoice impersonating a 'parking ticket'. It is clear that your operation is some sort of 'parking space maximisation scheme'

and your aim is clearly to maximise profits.

 

I decline your invitation to pay or name the driver, neither of which are required of me as the keeper of the vehicle.

 

This is my appeal and all liability to your company is denied on the following basis:

A The amount is neither a genuine tariff/fee for parking, nor is it based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss.

B You are not the landowner and do not have locus standi.

C Your signage was not sufficiently prominent nor clearly worded and consideration did not flow from both parties, so there was no contract.

 

If you choose not to cancel this invoice you must issue a rejection letter in reply to my appeal, explaining:

1 The legal basis of your charge (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee). As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegation.

If you try to rely upon ParkingEye v Beavis at POPLA, I will point out that it was a flawed decision, it is not binding, and it is set for the Court of Appeal. There is clearly no commercial justification for this punitive charge and no case law to support it.

 

2 Proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site.

 

3 Your explanation of the consideration that you believe flowed from the driver, and from yourselves.

 

4 A copy of the signage site map and close-up pictures of the signs in situ at the time, taken at a comparable time of day in similar light conditions.

 

5 The means to make an appeal to POPLA or the IAS.

 

Please note that I intend to claim my costs when I prevail. "

 

She found this in a CAG posting and thinks this is her best response to the PCN.

As I know very little about such matters could someone more experienced than me offer my wife advice

as to whether sending this missive is the best course of action as the first salvo against these leeches?

 

Many thanks to any responses whether positive or negative -

or whether the best course of action is simply to cough up despite her great distaste is so doing.

 

I have just read that the Beavis v Parking Eye case has been heard by the Court of Appeal.

Does this now mean there is a precedent for these parking companies to charge what they like with impunity?

 

Does my wife now have to delete the reference to this case or can it be stated it is going to the Supreme Court?

Or just leave the statement as it is?

[dx100uk]

pers I'd send a very simple letter of appeal

 

 

something like the dog wanted to use the toilet in morrisons

 

 

doesn't matter what you say really

 

 

its the popla code you are after.

 

 

dx

[aburobert]

Thanks for the input DX - much appreciated.

 

So it does not matter one iota what she says so long as the POPLA code is supplied? As the letter is ready for posting - just needs to be sent recorded - then there is no need to faff around and amend/change anything just mail it?

[dx100uk]

why waste recorded

all you need is free proof of posting from the PO counter

that's all.

 

 

this sounds like an ANPR capture

 

 

so have you consulted like threads

and confirmed they have

 

 

it is the NTK letter you have and you need to reply yet?

 

 

and that this NTK has come within the relevant time scale prescribed ?

 

 

http://www.google.co.uk/cse?cx=partner-pub-8889411648654839:6449422593&ie=UTF-8&q=Euro+Car+parks+&sa=Search+CAG#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Euro%20Car%20parks&gsc.page=1

[aburobert]

Thanks again DX.

 

The PCN states -'On 20/4/15 you were the registered keeper of the vehicle' etc. and it is addressed correctly to my wife so is the notice to keeper.

 

They must be well within any timescale as the 'offence' happened on the 20th and this notification arrived on the 25th.

 

This is an ANPR capture. No ticket was put on the car. The first my wife knew anything was when the NTK arrived in the post on Saturday.

[dx100uk]

not 100% sure this is the notice to keeper myself

 

 

it should be headed notice to keeper

not PCN.

 

 

or make ref to it being an NTK in the letter and invite you to appeal.

 

 

dx

[aburobert]

Again thanks DX.

 

The letter is headed - 'Parking Charge Notice (PCN)

 

Under that is the vehicle registration number, date of issue, PCN number, letter date, make of vehicle.

 

On the left is my wife's name and address - both correct.

 

Then comes the spiel about £90 being due etc. and that she was the registered keeper on the 20/4/15.

 

So if this is not the NTK does my wife just sit tight until she gets a missive that is addressed to the NTK?

[ericsbrother]

No, for number plate capture thay do not know who the driver was so invite the keeper to identify them. This is compliant with the PoFA so respond to the letter as you arent going to get another one.

[DragonFly1967]

You might want to change the bit about it heading for the Court of Appeal, that bit's done and dusted.

 

It's now heading for the Supreme Court.

 

 

Even if they really, REALLY wanted to rely on the County Court or Court of Appeal decision, I personally feel that this really only applies where the PPC (in that case ParkingLie) pay the land owner 'rent' to manage the car park. As that wouldn't be the case with ECP and Morrisons then the decision doesn't/can't apply to this case.

 

You might also want to bash some heads at the Customer Services desk at the Morrisons in question, and write to the CEO of Morrisons as well, who hates these companies with a vengeance, just can't find an easy way of getting out of the contracts. He'll love to hear from you

[aburobert]

Thanks Ericsbrother.

 

My wife has been to the Post Office and mailed her letter in reply.

 

We'll wait and see what comes back now!

[aburobert]

Thanks also Dragonfly - your post must have crossed with my reply to Ericsbrother. I think my wife simply crossed out the reference to the Beavis appeal before sealing the envelope and getting her proof of postage.

 

She is at work at the moment but I will see if she wishes to take this further with Morrisons - in fact I will push her to do so since she spends over £400 a month in their store. A pity she did not keep the receipts - after checking them for correctness she bungs them away and the bin men have taken this weeks recycling paper!

[ericsbrother]

does she have one of the layalty cards? If so complain big time to the CEO of Morrisons and quote the card number and invite them to intercede or you will be getting a Tesco Clubcard instead.

They will punch the details into their computer and see when she was there, what she bought etc and that will probably be enough to get them to do something.

I had problems with one of the "big shed" companies akin to this but they had a 45 day returns policy so after speaking to HO customer services I returned everything I had bought in the last 45 days. Having recently moved house that was an awful lot. Compensation offered as well as a due bollocking to errant cowboy co.

[aburobert]

On 27th April my wife mailed off her letter asking for a POPLA code for the Parking Charge notice she received. Proof of postage was obtained.

 

Since that date a deafening silence. Does this parking company have to provide a POPLA code within a certain time frame or is this open ended? She disappears off on a family holiday to the far east in a week or so's time and really wanted this done and dusted by now so can she safely ignore this and forget it or is it likely to come back and bite her on the bum at some later stage?

[armadillo71]

22.7 We consider it a reasonable timescale to allow 28 days from the issue of the parking charge notice (in whatever format you send it) to allow the driver, keeper or hirer to challenge the enforcement action. A keeper cannot make an appeal concerning the same incident if the driver has already appealed.

 

22.8 You must acknowledge or reply to the challenge within 14 days of receiving it. If at first you only acknowledge the challenge, or your reply does not fully resolve it, normally we would expect you to seek the additional information you require from the motorist and accept or reject the challenge in writing not more than 35 days after the information required to resolve it has been received from the motorist. It is acknowledged that in exceptional circumstances, an investigation into a challenge may take longer than 35 days after such information has been received and in these instances the motorist must be advised accordingly and given a date by which they can expect a resolution. If this date cannot be achieved then the motorist must be written to again and a revised resolution date agreed. We may require you to demonstrate that you are keeping to these times

 

 

 

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2014_update_V5.pdf

 

 

That is what Euro car parks should have done...

 

A POPLA code can be issued at anytime though, but as they have not followed the CoP then this will ultimately go nowhere.

 

I suspect the next letter will be from a toothless debt collector.

[aburobert]

Thanks Armadillo for the useful information.

 

As my wife will be away for a month or more leaving me to hold the fort I will keep an eye on her mail and see what transpires - if anything! It just amazes me they get away with what they do. Several of my wife's friends have been caught by this outfit and coughed up the money they demanded without question - a very nice little earner for little or no effort from people who really should know better.