security clearance

[jagpanther]

apologies this topic been discussed elsewhere

 

I have been offered job that needs security clearance, SC

 

10 years ago I had a breakdown and did something really serious whilst under influence of alcohol, I did not harm others,

 

there were mitigating circumstances and I was given a community order to receive medical help, had therapies like CBT, and had to attend clinic for 1 year, one day a every 3 to 4 weeks (I cant remember the exact frequency )

 

I feel of strong nature now, able to cope what life brings,

 

would such a criminal record cause a fail in the clearance process ?

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

You've posted in the visas forum. I think you need the employment one, so I'll move your thread there.

 

HB

[jagpanther]

thanks

[GrumpyToSayTheLeast]

I think we made need to know what sort of security level you are looking at applying for and we may need to know the type of offence too.

[p3t3r]

it may be that your record is now 'spent' since it is 10 years old

 

your employer needs a crb / dbs check? as far as i know, there are 3 different types, basic, standard, enhanced. depending on the type of job you apply for, your employer will probably need security clearance in the form of one of the crb / dbs checks

 

i do not know if your criminal record would fail in the clearance process. you'd need to find out if this record is spent or not... most of the answer will depend on what the original offence was and what type of job you are applying for now

 

if not spent and you have to disclose this, or it appears on crb checks, you could draw the attention of your employer to the mitigating circumstances, including you had CBT which helped you with whatever problems you had at the time

[andydd]

I've got sc clearance and I had a similar record from about 10 years ago too that didn't turn up. The thing is the Sc application does ask some rather searching questions that it can be unclear on how to answer, BUT you can pre empt this by asking the police to disclose any conviction info they have on you, mine came back completely clear so I answered the Sc questions accordingly and it was issued.

 

I can't recall the process for asking the police but I

Sure you can google it.

[andydd]

it may be that your record is now 'spent' since it is 10 years old

 

your employer needs a crb / dbs check? as far as i know, there are 3 different types, basic, standard, enhanced. depending on the type of job you apply for, your employer will probably need security clearance in the form of one of the crb / dbs checks

 

i do not know if your criminal record would fail in the clearance process. you'd need to find out if this record is spent or not... most of the answer will depend on what the original offence was and what type of job you are applying for now

 

if not spent and you have to disclose this, or it appears on crb checks, you could draw the attention of your employer to the mitigating circumstances, including you had CBT which helped you with whatever problems you had at the time

 

Sc checks are different from crb checks, which normally deal with working with vulnerable people, sc is purely for security reasons, there are also higher ones called dv and nato.

[andydd]

https://www.gov.uk/copy-of-police-records

[jagpanther]

I've got sc clearance and I had a similar record from about 10 years ago too that didn't turn up. The thing is the Sc application does ask some rather searching questions that it can be unclear on how to answer, BUT you can pre empt this by asking the police to disclose any conviction info they have on you, mine came back completely clear so I answered the Sc questions accordingly and it was issued.

 

I can't recall the process for asking the police but I

Sure you can google it.

 

thanks, found form, downloaded it, costs £10,

 

job is a List X facility,

 

I have read that if one declares everything, then barring one has not committed something like treason, then for SC clearance, should be ok. Is more a case if you dont declare something and they find out from checks.

 

I believe the theory is, if they know all about you, then in theory you cannot be blackmailed by someone external to the company,

 

but, I believe the new employer will sponsor the SC clearance, does this mean the company HR gets to see all personal data , say dating back 10 years ?

 

apologies if I am not correct on what I state, I have never needed SC clearance before,

[andydd]

SC is just a general check to make sure you are not a big time criminal, massively in debt or anything, in my case I had access to certain historic buildings.

 

I have heard that you should mention EVERYTHING even if it is spent as mentioned above, I personally got the police check and as that said they had no record of anything then that is what I put on my SC form and it was issued. In my case I couldn't really remember the incident in question and wasn't really sure what the result was, it didn't end in a conviction or anything.

 

I believe SC is a relatively quick check, DV and NATO give you access to top secret files, etc and these involve interviewing family n friends.

 

HR wont get to see much as the SC doesn't really include much info, I don't think it even includes a credit check (quite a few companies do these too, in my last IT contract role they actually turned down a guy as he had a CCJ but thenwere forced to change their minds as they had trouble getting someone else.)

 

Id say just get the police check first and see what that says.

[jagpanther]

SC is just a general check to make sure you are not a big time criminal, massively in debt or anything, in my case I had access to certain historic buildings.

 

I have heard that you should mention EVERYTHING even if it is spent as mentioned above, I personally got the police check and as that said they had no record of anything then that is what I put on my SC form and it was issued. In my case I couldn't really remember the incident in question and wasn't really sure what the result was, it didn't end in a conviction or anything.

 

I believe SC is a relatively quick check, DV and NATO give you access to top secret files, etc and these involve interviewing family n friends.

 

HR wont get to see much as the SC doesn't really include much info, I don't think it even includes a credit check (quite a few companies do these too, in my last IT contract role they actually turned down a guy as he had a CCJ but thenwere forced to change their minds as they had trouble getting someone else.)

 

Id say just get the police check first and see what that says.

 

looks like it is called Right of Subject Access'.

https://www.acro.police.uk/subject_access.aspx

 

looks like you can apply for info online too

 

http://hub.unlock.org.uk/knowledgebase/working-in-government-security-vetting/

 

not sure of link above accuracy, seems SC clearance does involve credit reference checks,

[andydd]

Yeah..it may do..my credit history is pretty poor but I passed, I didn't have any CCJ's but I have in the past, I think some checks (maybe SC) does ask you about CCJ's older than six years old but in my opinion I ignore that as I don't believe that credit history older than 6 years old can be checked (at least not easily).

[jagpanther]

Yeah..it may do..my credit history is pretty poor but I passed, I didn't have any CCJ's but I have in the past, I think some checks (maybe SC) does ask you about CCJ's older than six years old but in my opinion I ignore that as I don't believe that credit history older than 6 years old can be checked (at least not easily).

 

 

thanks andydd, and others too, any more advice, experience from others is appreciated

 

the general consensus from what I can glean is that if they know all about you, then you cannot be blackmailed, (apologies for repeating that.but to me, that makes perfect sense)

[BazzaS]

it may be that your record is now 'spent' since it is 10 years old

 

your employer needs a crb / dbs check? as far as i know, there are 3 different types, basic, standard, enhanced. depending on the type of job you apply for, your employer will probably need security clearance in the form of one of the crb / dbs checks

 

i do not know if your criminal record would fail in the clearance process. you'd need to find out if this record is spent or not... most of the answer will depend on what the original offence was and what type of job you are applying for now

 

if not spent and you have to disclose this, or it appears on crb checks, you could draw the attention of your employer to the mitigating circumstances, including you had CBT which helped you with whatever problems you had at the time

 

I'm in awe of how you can be "so nearly right, but wrong" so many times in one short post....

 

"depending on the type of job you apply for, your employer will probably need security clearance in the form of one of the crb / dbs checks"

 

Security clearance is NOT the same as a DBS check.

 

As others have noted, NSV checks will have some similarities with the DBS process, but they aren't the same. For example, DBS won't look at financials, where NSV* may (and in detail for what was EPV*'s that is now known as 'developed vetting')

 

NSV*= National security vetting. EPV= (the grade above 'positive vetting'), 'extremely positively vetted'

 

"spent or not... most of the answer will depend on what the original offence was"

Almost right, but wrong, again. It isn't the offence that matters, but the sentence.

Of course the offence is going to influence the sentence, but often there are a range of sentencing options available.

At the extremes of offences there may be restrictions on sentence (as examples, for breaching Railway Bylaws there can be only a fine, and not prison, while murder carries a mandatory life sentence), but for anything for manslaughter down, until reaching those offences where prison isn't an option : there will be a range of sentences available to the court, and the nature of the disposal (prison?, how long for?, fine, probation, conditional discharge, and so on) determines the period before it is spent.

 

So, 2 identical offences, but in different circumstances such that the courts reach 2 different disposals, may have very different periods to become 'spent'

http://www.nacro.org.uk/resettlement-advice-service/reforms-to-the-rehabilitation-of-offenders-act/

So, for the same offence (e.g. robbery, of £250), there could be a sentence of (say) probation for six months, or a prison sentence of 7 months.

The former has a period of a year from end of the order before it is spent, so 1 1/2 years total, while the latter has a period of 4 years from end of sentence, so 4 years 7 months total.

Same offence (e.g. robbery), but different periods as it is the disposal, not the offence that determines it.

 

"spent or not... most of the answer will depend on ........ what type of job you are applying for now"

 

If (and it isn't, but if) this was about DBS checks and 'spent' offences, rather than NSV, then the 'type of job' is relevant only to if an enhanced (e)DBS is required. Basic and standard DBS's showing prior convictions will be affected by if the conviction is 'spent' (where a 'spent' conviction won't show), while for the purposes of an eDBS not only will convictions never become 'spent', but information may be included even if there wasn't a conviction (under "other information at Chief Officer's discretion").

The applicant will be able to know that the convictions will not be viewed as 'spent' for their check, as as part of the application they'll have been asked to disclose even spent convictions, as there will be a notification that "this application is exempt from the provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders legislation".

 

 

Moving away from DBS's (although I hope the info above is useful to anyone who finds your erroneous post while researching DBS's), and returning to info that might help the OP with NSV:

Others have noted the varying NSV checks (SC, CTC, DV). There was some discussion of if credit checks took place.

From https://www.gov.uk/security-vetting-and-clearance

Financial questionnaire

 

A financial questionnaire is used to determine the financial circumstances of an individual, either as part of the initial security vetting process, or as part of the aftercare monitoring work which confirms their continued suitability to hold a security clearance.

and, regarding your previous conviction

Will a criminal record result in clearance being refused?

 

Not necessarily. Each case will be judged on its merits. The important thing is to be completely open about any criminal history - including spent convictions and police cautions.

Any attempt to hide information could be taken as evidence of unreliability/dishonesty and may affect the clearance.

So, be honest and open, giving all the circumstances. for a historic conviction, it will be more about if you try to hide the conviction (which would make you seem unreliable, or open to being blackmailed about it to keep it hidden) than the original offence.

[ScarletPimpernel]

SC is just a general check to make sure you are not a big time criminal, massively in debt or anything, in my case I had access to certain historic buildings.

 

 

I believe SC is a relatively quick check, DV and NATO give you access to top secret files, etc and these involve interviewing family n friends.

 

HR wont get to see much as the SC doesn't really include much info, I don't think it even includes a credit check (quite a few companies do these too, in my last IT contract role they actually turned down a guy as he had a CCJ but thenwere forced to change their minds as they had trouble getting someone else.)

 

 

The basic check is actually called a Basic Check, after that is a CTC (counterterrorism check).

 

Here's the official definition of SC:

A Security Check (SC) is required for access to certain Government establishments and for jobs involving access to sensitive information which is classified as 'SECRET'. The vetting process for SC clearance includes:

- Completion of a security clearance questionnaire by the candidate

- Checking identity documents and employment/education references

- Checks against UK criminal and security records

- A credit reference check;

- If considered necessary, checks against the criminal and security records of relevant foreign countries.

 

After SC is DV (Developed Vetting), which is the highest UK clearance level. This different to protective markings on documents which might have NATO, UK EYES ONLY OR 5 EYES ONLY markings.

 

My job requires an SC because I have occasional access to SECRET information and locations.

 

My advice to anyone undergoing clearance is to be honest and declare everything; if you aren't sure how to put something, ask your DBS NSV Desk Officer whose contact details you'll be provided with. The purpose of clearance is to identify vulnerability - lack of integrity and dishonesty are clear examples, and trying to cover things up or say that you didn't think it counted any more won't wash.

 

If DBS NSV want any more information they'll get in touch.

 

I've had several colleagues who've had to provide supplementary financial information before getting clearance granted. One had her clearance suspended until she could prove she was in a successful DMP. Another, who had travelled for a few months after leaving the RN, had to provide the address of every hotel and guest house, with dates, she stayed in overseas before they'd clear her.

 

In terms of convictions/mental health history, it's not an automatic bar, but be open and honest, and answer any questions you're asked.

 

Oh, and don't expect it to happen quickly - most of our new people are waiting 3 months for straightforward clearances.

[BazzaS]

if you aren't sure how to put something, ask your DBS NSV Desk Officer whose contact details you'll be provided with.

 

........

 

If DBS NSV want any more information ......

 

Just for the avoidance of doubt : DBS NSV is "Defence Business Services National Security Vetting" for access to security classified information / locations.

 

This is a different "DBS" to the Disclosure and Barring Service 'DBS' (previously known as "CRB") who do the standard, basic and enhanced DBS checks where e.g. access to vulnerable persons is involved (rather than access to classified information).

[andydd]

Just for the avoidance of doubt : DBS NSV is "Defence Business Services National Security Vetting" for access to security classified information / locations.

 

This is a different "DBS" to the Disclosure and Barring Service 'DBS' (previously known as "CRB") who do the standard, basic and enhanced DBS checks where e.g. access to vulnerable persons is involved (rather than access to classified information).

 

Is this the new name for DV and NATO levels or are they something different ?

[BazzaS]

Is this the new name for DV and NATO levels or are they something different ?

 

DV is developed vetting.

DV is one of the levels of the overall concept : NSV - national security vetting.

NSV is arranged by employees of Defence Business Services, the agency who arrange NSV (hence DBS NSV)

 

NATO clearance refers to access to classified NATO information. In theory this is a seperate strand (and even has a seperate means of contact listed, with "NATO" featuring in the request email

NATO clearance notification requests

Email DBS NSV directly, using the phrase ‘NATO request’ in the subject line, to [email protected].

 

From the publically available info :

https://www.gov.uk/security-vetting-and-clearance

 

In the UK a ‘Personnel Security Clearance’ (PSC) to access NATO, EU or international partner’s classified information is based upon the subject holding a valid NSV clearance at the SC or DV level.

 

Would seem to suggest some NATO clearance would only require SC rather than DV. However,

 

The usual criteria for requiring a DV are ‘long term, frequent and uncontrolled access to top secret information or assets…. or in order to satisfy requirements for access to material originating from other countries and international organisations’.

 

So it would be possible for NATO (the organisation) to require DV too ........ If they made it a requirement for the material being handled.

 

Edited: from "DBS NSV perform NSV" to "DBS NSV arrange NSV". I'm sure that some of the performance of NSV gets performed by persons belonging to a different agency

[ScarletPimpernel]

Is this the new name for DV and NATO levels or are they something different ?

 

No.

 

DBS NSV is the agency that carries out security vetting in the UK. The NATO equivalent is the NATO Office of Security, which vets non-military individuals working in NATO.

 

Developed Vetting is the highest level of UK security clearance.

 

NATO has the Personnel Security Clearance Certificate issued at 3 different levels reflecting the level of access required.

[ScarletPimpernel]

DV is developed vetting.

DV is one of the levels of the overall concept : NSV - national security vetting.

NSV is performed by employees of Defence Business Services, the agency who perform NSV (hence DBS NSV)

 

NATO clearance refers to access to classified NATO information. In theory this is a seperate strand (and even has a seperate means of contact listed, with "NATO" featuring in the request email

 

 

From the publically available info :

https://www.gov.uk/security-vetting-and-clearance

 

 

Would seem to suggest some NATO clearance would only require SC rather than DV. However,

 

 

 

So it would be possible for NATO (the organisation) to require DV too ........ If they made it a requirement for the material being handled.

 

 

I've never had a NATO clearance but had regular access to NATO SECRET systems on operations.

 

I think the NATO clearance is intended for those working in NATO locations.

[BazzaS]

I've never had a NATO clearance but had regular access to NATO SECRET systems on operations.

 

I think the NATO clearance is intended for those working in NATO locations.

 

Following on from the usual comment of "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you".........

 

Having told us that, do you have to kill us now?

 

Best reply to that I ever heard was "Of course I don't have to kill you now!

 

.

.

.

.

.

I can leave it till a bit later if I want!"

[jagpanther]

Almost right, but wrong, again. It isn't the offence that matters, but the sentence.

 

interesting point , and thanks for very detailed reply,

 

hopefully I can details from police database before I need to fill in SC forms,

[BazzaS]

interesting point , and thanks for very detailed reply,

 

hopefully I can details from police database before I need to fill in SC forms,

 

Why do you need details from the police database? (Unless there is stuff you are worried you've forgotten)

 

Declare your conviction on the SC form, with the court's sentencing, and the background details.

Let the NSV team see you aren't hiding anything.

[andydd]

But you could argue there is no need to go declaring offences/convictions when they arnt going to show up anyway ? (Plus in my case I also had forgotten details/dates, etc as it was many years ago.).

 

My details from Police came back blank so I didnt mention anything on SC form, obvioulsy this is just from my experience and may not apply to everyone. Im not 100% convinced of the 'just admit everything and see what happens argument', it may be that admitted something that wasnt going to show up anyway loses you the clearance and/or job.

[jagpanther]

But you could argue there is no need to go declaring offences/convictions when they arnt going to show up anyway ? (Plus in my case I also had forgotten details/dates, etc as it was many years ago.).

 

My details from Police came back blank so I didnt mention anything on SC form, obvioulsy this is just from my experience and may not apply to everyone. Im not 100% convinced of the 'just admit everything and see what happens argument', it may be that admitted something that wasnt going to show up anyway loses you the clearance and/or job.

 

guess the bottom line is that I have been offered this new job, more money,

 

but, if I leave my current job, (which does not need SC clearance), resign, accept this new offer, then weeks later find out my clearance has not been granted

 

I have read scary stories that people can be marched off site,

 

I do like the idea of paying for right of subject access, finding out what is on file with police first, but as I say, not sure if I have time to do this, prior to filling in all new employers paperwork, if I accept,

 

 

you guys are great, thanks for all advice