Ingeus - four week sanction !

[LynnJC]

I wonder if anyone can advise me on what to do PLEASE ... Just before Christmas, while I was doing a jobsearch at Ingeus, my advisor put her head round the door and told me the opening hours for Christmas and the new year (re-opening was on Fri 2 Jan). I usually attend on a Tues and Weds. Now I have been sanctioned for 4 weeks as I didn't turn up on Fri 2 Jan. But she didn't tell me to! I always make a note of what she says to me, because she never remembers herself. I now intend to record all conversations with her and have asked that any further appointments she says she has made are confirmed in writing.

 

 

I made a written complaint about my advisor in October last year because - amongst other things - she said she left a message on my answerphone (I don't even have one) and she said I hadn't attended a jobsearch (but my signature is clearly visible in the signing in book for that day). This advisor clearly has no idea what she is doing with regard to her work at Ingeus, but I believe she is now deliberately trying to get my benefits stopped because I complained about her. And she's done this by lying - saying I had an appointment on 2 Jan when I am 100% sure that I did not.

 

 

With regard to the previous complaint I made, apparently the system is such that it is investigated by Ingeus themselves - great! Is there anyone else I can complain to (I tried DWP and Job Centre but they didn't bother to respond).

[tfp]

Challenge this! Go over and above as many heads as possible. I did just this myself here in Leeds. An adviser had a very poor attitude and was clearly untrained and incompetent. I contacted Ingeus' head office and spoke to someone in charge naming this adviser. They in turn contacted the Leeds branch who contacted myself. I did not have to see this useless adviser anymore.

 

 

Your situation is a bit more serious than mine was LynneJC due to the unfair sanction. If going to complaining to Ingeus bears no fruit, then seriously consider Citizens Advice and even your MP.

 

 

Easy for me to say perhaps in front of my monitor, but do not be intimidated by these advisers. They are no better qualified than you or I. Indeed in many cases they're considerably worse. Remind them that Ingeus is a PRIVATE company and you are supposedly a CUSTOMER. As such you have a right to point to poor customer service. You are correct in recording all your meetings in future as it does seem advisers are not putting anything in writing. I suppose this makes it difficult to refute when cases such as these arise - a your word vs. theirs situation. But a sloppy and unprofessional practice all the same.

 

 

Dunno if you or anyone listened to BBC R4 last night at 20.00. File on 4 presented a program about benefit sanctions:

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04yk7h6

 

 

Cases similar to yours were highlighted where JCP advisers were deliberately setting jobseekers up to fail by telling them of the date of a particular appointment and then changing the date without the jobseekers knowledge. Quite disgraceful really.

[Nystagmite]

Was this supposed appointment in writing? I'd wait for someone to come along with more information; but there's a certain way that appointments have to be given out. (ie, in writing and within a certain time)

[SabreSheep]

Appeal the sanction with the dwp, mandatory consideration first.

 

Appointments have to be given to you in wrtiing do they not within reasonable time

[jasta11]

All WP appointments must be in writing and delivered in good time; their guidance is absolutely clear on this (and they probably already know it but hope you don't).

 

It's also equally clear in the guidance that electronic methods of making appointments - and this would include leaving messages on answerphones - is definitely not allowed, neither can they use texts or emails to set up appointments. If you didn't get the appointment by letter, then it doesn't exist. Challenge the WP to prove they contacted you at all - I'm sure they won't be able to and you can remind them that you can make an official Subject Access Request (SAR) which will force them to show all communications records, info stored and dealings with you since you started the course. I'm sure they won't want this as it will show they didn't send anything - or if they did, it was in a way which DWP guidance doesn't allow.

 

Definitely seems a good time to start recording everything when you attend Ingeus. A lot of us here have done the 2 years with them and we know what they're capable of...anything

[LynnJC]

Thank you SO much for lots of useful information, which I will follow up. I actually did my post earlier whilst I was at Ingeus doing a jobsearch. On the way out of their office, I left a letter stating the facts (as per my post here) to the manager.

 

The manager phoned me when I got home ... they maintain they have a file copy of a letter that they say they sent to me, informing me about the mandatory appointment on 2 January. I definitely didn't receive it but can't prove it, of course, and I think the adviser is lying about sending it, especially given her track record.

 

I was in touch with my MP when I made my complaint in October 2014. I will re-read what she said but, from memory, it didn't really give me many options about what to do. But I don't want to let this go, so will definitely be following it up.

[Mr.P]

All WP appointments must be in writing and delivered in good time; their guidance is absolutely clear on this (and they probably already know it but hope you don't).

 

The guidance referred to can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366745/wp-pg-chapter-3a-22-october-2012.pdf

Page 12-13 contains the relevant sections. One thing to note, paragraph 38 states "If the MAN is posted, it is taken to have been received on the second working day after posting" - It should state that this is only valid IF posted first class. In these parts, Ingeus has taken to sending out much of their post second class, and Royal Mail aim to deliver 98.5% within three working days.

 

Over the Christmas period, the delivery targets set for Royal Mail are suspended, so it is quite possible for even a first class letter takes a week to arrive.

 

LynnJC: When you request the Mandatory Reconsideration, ask for a copy of the WP08 and any supporting "evidence" so that you lodge a formal appeal (if it gets to that stage). It may also be worth asking this "manager" when this letter was posted, first or second class post, and what proof they have to support the claim.

[SabreSheep]

Do all this formally in writing.

 

I would also send the SAR off now seeing as you have been sanctioned and will need the info for an appeal. The info can take 40+ days

 

Keep an eye on timelines, in writing request your mandatory reconsideration now. This means you can then start preaparing for the first appeal.

 

only 2-3% of people appeal their sanctions.

 

80% win at appeal/tribunal!

 

 

Mods maybe this poster needs their own thread to help them appeal?

[jasta11]

The manager phoned me when I got home ... they maintain they have a file copy of a letter that they say they sent to me, informing me about the mandatory appointment on 2 January. I definitely didn't receive it but can't prove it, of course, and I think the adviser is lying about sending it, especially given her track record.

 

Proves absolutely nothing; they could - and most likely have - just typed it up recently to cover themselves or deliberately held onto it and not posted it. They have no proof it was ever sent to you and this in itself should be enough to presume you're 'innocent until proven guilty', but as we all know the JC and WP work the other way; they presume you're guilty until you show you're innocent.

 

If you've always attended every previous WP appointment without problem then this should help in your case, as why would you deliberately fail to attend knowing what the consequences might be? Pity there's no way to check the WP's computer systems and see exactly when - or even if - this letter was ever created.

 

Still challenge them on their alleged answerphone message to you - that's one record that can be checked.

[SabreSheep]

If you appeal to the tribunal, the tribunal will ask them to provide evidence they posted it

[Mr.P]

Still challenge them on their alleged answerphone message to you - that's one record that can be checked.

 

Indeed. Get it in writing, but say nothing about not having an answer phone. Let them provide the rope

[slick132]

New thread created for LynnJC's case.

 

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Lynn:

 

Have you got the letter from a Decision Maker yet informing you that you have been sanctioned? How is the reason for the sanction worded?