Fraud by false rep - need guidance

[Guest]

ok, looking back i got your (alleged) offence wrong re the strict value. apologies re that.

[Guest]

Tell me about it, but the accusation is fraud, it is not the sentence I fear, be it a fine or community order, it's the criminal record and them tarnishing my good name!!

 

 

if you dont mind posting it, what is the count?

[maxxer]

Which store is this.

 

 

Is it tk maxx ? (if not, totally ignore the below)

 

 

 

 

To give you a brief overview of what will of happened to get to where you are:

 

 

You order a jumper top online. If you have been flagged before, it goes to a special pick team in the distribution centre. the item is picked and packed by loss prevention, not ordinary staff. Detailed photos are taken, as well as the entire thing being filmed by cctv. Pick and pack is completed, the parcel sealed, and sent via courier to you.

 

 

They then wait until the item is returned to a store. When it is, the invoice number flags up to keep the item, you get your refund as normal, and then the item is checked (as 99.9% of customers are genuine) once its all processed.

 

 

If the items match, you never see or hear anything.

 

 

If they don't, then the prosecution case file is completed, and the police called. The case is presented to them after all the work is done (statements, cctv etc), and then they come knocking.

 

 

In many cases, the local security guys in the store don't know about any potential fraudulent customers until they get asked to check the garments to photos sent via email. Its only when they say 'its not a blue handbag, its a red one' that the ball starts rolling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you say 'wrong tags on' - do you mean the price ticket has magically attached itself to the wrong garment ? or do you mean some brand label has been sewn into a cheap top ?

 

 

 

 

And what did you say in interview to counter the argument that you returned the wrong item ?

 

 

Sounds like you have an uphill struggle, but if you have some answers as to why and how you managed to return it, then the best place to give them is here, where any problems will be spotted by members, and can be clarified or ironed out. Much better to role play in here than try on the day in court.

[speranza]

Which store is this.

 

 

Is it tk maxx ? (if not, totally ignore the below)

.

 

No darling, it's a different store and

 

 

I had never done any fraudulent returns there or elsewhere for that matter to be watched.

 

 

The price tag with the label was hand sewn onto a different item (the police showed me during the interview),

but I hardly spotted that when I got the item,

don't think I even tried it on,

 

 

I order so much online I just didn't like the look of it and took it back.

 

 

It looked very similar to what I had ordered in terms of colour and pattern so it raise no suspicion with me.

It is not something one would notice without being vigilant otherwise the returns assistant would have said something on the day

before processing a refund and I'd take it and post it back to the warehouse it came from!

 

 

I am a little bit scared in terms of what defence I have here as it is their word against mine.

 

 

Apparently somewhere else on the garment is a different label of a different high street brand

which is prompting them to say it is not theirs.

 

 

It is not a cheap version or a worn item by any means,

looks very similar to the picture of what it would have been ordered online.

 

 

I would have no reason whatsoever to return something like that as there is no gain in cash made as they claim.

 

 

If I had something I didn't like I would take it back to that store, not another!

 

 

They have statements from the store manager and the assistant who refunded it.

 

It may be worth mentioning they did a house search I'd imagine looking for similar items and didn't find anything.

 

 

What is going to happen during my jury trial and how should I prepare myself for this?

 

 

Any tips will help.

 

 

I have simply said that is what I received in the mail and that is what I returned to the shop.

No idea how it will go from this point on...

Edited December 4, 2014 by speranza

[BankFodder]

I think it would be helpful if you told us the name of the online store, the name of the store that you went to for the refund and a link to the goods online which you bought.

 

Then we will find it much more easy to understand and will be better placed to give you the advice that you need.

[speranza]

I think it would be helpful if you told us the name of the online store, the name of the store that you went to for the refund and a link to the goods online which you bought.

 

Then we will find it much more easy to understand and will be better placed to give you the advice that you need.

 

Excuse me, but why does that matter in any way at all?! I have provided as much detail as possible to get some opinions on people's view of this, giving the actual name of the shops is totally irrelevant. The store I went to for a refund is the same as the online store, obviously. Do you find this sensational and want to satisfy your curiosity? And I thought people were here to help.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Excuse me, but why does that matter in any way at all?! I have provided as much detail as possible to get some opinions on people's view of this, giving the actual name of the shops is totally irrelevant. The store I went to for a refund is the same as the online store, obviously. Do you find this sensational and want to satisfy your curiosity? And I thought people were here to help.

 

We have a good deal of experience in dealing with these issues, and the policies and practices of particular retailers, which is sometimes helpful. The more information we have, the easier it is to assist.

 

I can assure you that none the site team here, who give our time and expertise to help others, do so merely to satisfy curiosity or for some other salacious reason.

 

Rudeness is rarely helpful, especially if you want people to help, and there is no excuse for it. We are non-judgmental, and in return I do not think it unreasonable to expect you to be civil.

[speranza]

We have a good deal of experience in dealing with these issues, and the policies and practices of particular retailers, which is sometimes helpful. The more information we have, the easier it is to assist.

 

I can assure you that none the site team here, who give our time and expertise to help others, do so merely to satisfy curiosity or for some other salacious reason.

 

Rudeness is rarely helpful, especially if you want people to help, and there is no excuse for it. We are non-judgmental, and in return I do not think it unreasonable to expect you to be civil.

 

I am terribly sorry, I have a Crown Court trial on this. I'm too scared to reveal that much information in case the store is pointed to this thread. I hope you understand. The store I am talking about is not mentioned in your forums at all. Unlike TKMaxx they don't have a history of similar issues. I guess any help would be on the basis of the info I've provided which is very through bar the store name. Sorry about that

[silverfox1961]

Speranza, I can understand your reluctance to name the store involved as you feel that with the info submitted so far, you could be identified.

 

What you could do if you wish (your choice) is to let one of the site team know. We are bound by the Data Protection Act and would never reveal this detail without your express permission.

 

You say you have a crown court trial pending. Has that been confirmed? A lot of magistrates can deal with not guilty pleas without the expense of going higher.

[speranza]

Speranza, I can understand your reluctance to name the store involved as you feel that with the info submitted so far, you could be identified.

 

What you could do if you wish (your choice) is to let one of the site team know. We are bound by the Data Protection Act and would never reveal this detail without your express permission.

 

You say you have a crown court trial pending. Has that been confirmed? A lot of magistrates can deal with not guilty pleas without the expense of going higher.

 

 

I could let someone know in a private message but in all honesty, don't think it matters that much. It is not about the members revealing anything, anyone can read these posts. Also I chose to go higher because I want a fairer trial. I have disclosed all the information I have on the case so any help regarding evidence and my defence would be appreciated. Thank you!

[old bill]

I would need to know who the retailer is before I can provide any advice.

 

If the OP bought an item on a retailer's online retail portal, there would normally be arrangements in place for customers to take faulty or wrongly supplied items to the retailer's nearest fixed location outlet, if there was one near to where the customer lives. That is commonsense for both customer and retailer.

 

What is puzzling me is the fact that the retailer waited a number of days before involving the police and subsequently subjecting the OP to what can only be described as treatment akin to that practised by the Stazi. What proof does the retailer have that the OP has, in fact, committed fraud? Have the staff at the fixed location store dropped an almighty clanger and are, simply, trying to save their own backsides from internal disciplinary procedures by cooking up some cock and bull story to the police?

 

One thing that has crossed my mind is whether the online store was a cloned website, run by criminals, selling counterfeit goods. I can understand that, but the retailer has to understand, as has the retail industry as a whole, you cannot accuse people of serious offences when the chances are the person you are accusing has been the innocent victim of a criminal offence themselves.

[JoeyJoeC]

It would defiantly be worth knowing who the retailer is.

 

It wouldn't jeopardize the case at all.

[old bill]

It would defiantly be worth knowing who the retailer is.

 

It wouldn't jeopardize the case at all.

 

I totally agree with you. Some retailers are worse than others for doing things like this. It really is time to clamp down on the abuse of the courts and legal system by the retail industry.

[speranza]

Does anyone please have any valuable advice as to what will happen in Court? The shop do not make the item and have a store representative to say so, yet that is what I received from the warehouse. So how will I prove my innocence in all this?

[old bill]

What do you mean, "How will I prove my innocence in this?" Under Article 6, Human Rights Act 1998, you are innocent until proven guilty by a court of law or other legally-convened tribunal. It is for the retailer, CPS and police to prove your guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

 

Do you have screenshots of the retailer's website and page from which you ordered the item?

 

Your case sounds like it is based more on corporate paranoia than cold, hard facts.

[speranza]

The police had an enlarged picture of what the item ordered online would be. They said the one returned resembles it a lot but the buttons are a different colour and some detail on the collar differs too. They also then showed me how the original label seemed to have been transferred and hand sewn into this other garment that was returned by me. Therefore they accuse me of doing so. I have no other defence except I returned what I got in the mail without giving it much thought, never spotted anything wrong with the item, neither did the sales assistant that gave me my money back on the day. I need advice of the possible case scenarios of what will happen in Court since I already have a plea and case management hearing date and will be thousands of £ out of pocket threatened by a conviction that will jeopardise my life.

[old bill]

Has your legal team required the retailer to furnish them with a list of the manufacturers/suppliers they sourced the item from? Different manufacturers/suppliers use different buttons and styles. The item you returned may well be one of a batch that was different from previous or subsequent batches, but this does not mean that you have been dishonest. I feel that the retailer, CPS and police are clutching at straws, having accused you and are now having to try and cobble together a credible case.

 

Speaking as a former policeman, I have to say that the evidence the other side has in your case is very much circumstantial and there is nothing conclusive. What evidence does the other side have to substantiate their allegations? Very little, I wouldn't mind betting. All a court needs is reasonable doubt in order to throw out a case.

 

Plea hearings are simply to allow you to enter a plea. I am sure your legal team will tell you this, but if you know in your own mind you have done nothing wrong, you should not plead "Guilty". Retailers have made terrible blunders in the past and which have had tragic consequences, but they have also made almighty blunders that have landed them with court judgements against them for substantial civil damages and costs.

 

I feel you need to speak with your legal team about the case as they should be able to give you the best guidance. A good criminal defence lawyer can be worth their weight in gold.

[speranza]

My solicitor simply said at a magistrates hearing they'll get the store manager as a witness to say we don't have anything to do with that brand, they've returned something else as our own and on the other side you saying that's what you've received. Who do you think they're going to believe? I felt the magistrates would side with the police and prosecution so decided for a Judge and jury trial which will take months to happen and I'm very frightened as a lot is at stake.

[old bill]

It sounds to me that your solicitor doesn't want to do their job properly and simply wants to fleece you and/or the Legal Aid Authority. How old would you say the solicitor who is supposed to be looking after your best interests is?

 

If there were three Injustices of the Peace sitting at the hearing at the magistrates court, I can fully understand you opting for trial by jury. However, it is your right.

 

Don't think for one minute that the jury is going to believe the store manager above you. That is not what they are there to do. However, it is what the CPS, police and retailer are hoping they will do. The prosecution has to prove its case first. I am not convinced the prosecution has what could be described as reliable evidence. Give your solicitor a good hard kick up their backside and tell them to stop being so lazy and do their job properly.

[BazzaS]

My solicitor simply said at a magistrates hearing they'll get the store manager as a witness to say we don't have anything to do with that brand, they've returned something else as our own and on the other side you saying that's what you've received. Who do you think they're going to believe? I felt the magistrates would side with the police and prosecution so decided for a Judge and jury trial which will take months to happen and I'm very frightened as a lot is at stake.

 

What is the advice from your solicitor?.

 

To my (simplistic) mind, (and bear me out on this)

Either you returned a counterfeit or you didn't. If they can produce testimony you returned a countefeit, you may find it hard to show otherwise, unless you can show they are mistaken.

 

If you returned a counterfeit, and you maintain you thought it was genuine : this is your defence. You may have returned a counterfeit, but there was no intent to defraud. This would then put you in the position where you might be asked how you came to have a counterfeit in your possession : you said earlier you didn't know how you came by a non-original.

 

Are you claiming it was bought from the retailer's legitimate site?. As others have said, sites can be cloned and you would need to be sure it wasn't a 'fake site. If you coul show it was a fake site, and you believed it to be legitimate : there is your explanation. How did you pay for the item when you bought it online (there will be an audit trail?)

 

If from the true retailer, could they have had a fake PREVIOUSLY returned by someone else? and not spotted by their staff, so then sent out to you as 'new' and 'not fake'?

The hazard with taking this approach is if the retailer can show they have measures in place to prevent just this, which might make any such claim an uphill battle.

 

All you need do to avoid them proving you guilty is to introduce reasonable doubt as to your guilt : you must then be found not guilty.

However, any prosecutor will be looking to suggest that your explanations aren't reasonable, and are far-fetched and fanciful, or just not true.

This is why it is critical that you are entirely truthful if going down this line: if they can successfully attack your credibility, then saying "I don't know how I came by a fake" might not be persuasive .....

[speranza]

Well I only filed an application for legal aid with them which wasn't granted for Magistrates representation but will be in part for Crown Court. I would just have to contribute for most of the costs though. They were not fully representing me due to this but will be from this point forward and I'm sure they've got my best interest at heart.

[speranza]

What is the advice from your solicitor?

 

If from the true retailer, could they have had a fake PREVIOUSLY returned by someone else? and not spotted by their staff, so then sent out to you as 'new' and 'not fake'?

The hazard with taking this approach is if the retailer can show they have measures in place to prevent just this, which might make any such claim an uphill battle.

 

All you need do to avoid them proving you guilty is to introduce reasonable doubt as to your guilt : you must then be found not guilty.

However, any prosecutor will be looking to suggest that your explanations aren't reasonable, and are far-fetched and fanciful, or just not true.

This is why it is critical that you are entirely truthful if going down this line: if they can successfully attack your credibility, then saying "I don't know how I came by a fake" might not be persuasive .....

 

I am yet to have a proper meeting with the solicitor regarding the matter. I will do so before the plea and case management date in Court. I had only filed for legal aid so far.

 

I had purchased from the original site hence the order number and return invoice that came with it were recognised by the shop when processing the refund.

 

Then they said their label had been transferred to a similar looking garment made by a different retailer. I do not know how to defend myself if they say they check items before despatch. They all claim to but customers constantly receive wrong items/ orders in the mail. I don't know who is the jury more likely to believe but I'm a single person and they're a powerful institution so I am frightened by all this. All I know is I had no gain in returning a similar looking garment from a different retailer for something I bought from them for £30.

[old bill]

It would help if you told us who the retailer is, please. The retailer is making claims which, I suspect, they may have difficulty substantiating.

[speranza]

It would help if you told us who the retailer is, please. The retailer is making claims which, I suspect, they may have difficulty substantiating.

 

The Arcadia group

[Guest]

Well I only filed an application for legal aid with them which wasn't granted for Magistrates representation but will be in part for Crown Court. I would just have to contribute for most of the costs though. They were not fully representing me due to this but will be from this point forward and I'm sure they've got my best interest at heart.

 

presume then you have a rep order, with contributions from income?

usually, any contributions paid will be refunded if found not guilty, or cps drop it.

your sol/counsel will 'guide' you pre, at the pcmh and after.