Looking to take Orange to Court

[moneyproblem]

Hi fellow CAGers,

 

 

its been a long time.

 

 

I've gotten all my finances in order and thought I would be free until I ran into a problem with Orange.

 

 

I've had a mobile phone contract for about 3-4 years. I've always paid by direct debit, and my bill has never reached even £60.

 

 

At the end of June this year, I received a bill for over £300

 

 

Orange allowed me to go over my plan by 700 minutes plus.

 

 

I contacted them on the same day I rec'd my bill, and asked them why they didn't they inform me that I had gone over my plan.

 

 

They said that they don't do that and that its my responsibility to keep track of my calls. I told them that I've never even had bill for £60 moreover £300.

 

 

I told them that I have also previously rec'd texts from orange stating that they do periodically look at how much I'm paying.

 

 

I asked them that it would not be feasible for me to pay it. And I was told that they can't provide any help until the debt goes to the collection teams.

 

 

I asked if I could upgrade my plan to have unlimited calls and text messages. They said yes, and told me that the upgrade would start at the end of July.

 

 

I paid the portion of the bill that I didn't dispute.

 

 

Within two weeks I was partially barred.

 

 

My account was unbarred at the end of July, as per the start of the new plan. I paid the new plan on time, and within 2 weeks, my line was partially barred again.

 

 

Paid September's bill on time, paid October's bill on time

 

 

On October 1st, the account with fully barred.

 

 

Throughout this time, I've been having phone (I've recorded all of these) and email conversation stating that both T-Mobile and EE contact their customers when they are close to their limit (via a text) and I've found news quotes from Orange representatives stating that they do contact their customers.

 

 

I was going to take them to the Ombudsman, but even though I requested the deadlock letter multiple times, and have been promised it, it was never sent.

 

 

I'm considering taking them to court for the 2.5-3 months of charges for no service, even though I was paying. And for charging an arbitrary rate that is no where to be found in my contract.

 

 

I agree that they are owed money for the extra minutes, even though I don't like the fact that I wasn't notified at all given the bill has skyrocketed more than 4 times my plan.

 

 

The money I believe they are owed is what is stated in the price plan, another month payment which covers the 700 plus minutes.

 

 

There is no "extra minute" charge found anywhere in the contract.

 

 

Not only that, during this entire time, I've rec'd two calls from orange sales people offering another line, and one orange sales person actually offering to update my account again, for cheaper than the price plan offered in June.

 

 

I read that the CCA doesn't govern them, but saw someone post link a to WHICH regarding mis-selling and Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, can I also use the UTCCR?

 

 

My goal is to pay what is contractual and get my phone number back, which they are currently holding ransom.

 

 

Can anybody offer any help/guidance?

[rebel11]

Hi money

 

Write a Formal Letter of Complaint, mark it as such. Explain whats happened, how they have let you down and what you want them to do.

 

Go threw their T & C's, just because it's in their T & C's doesn't make it fair.

 

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/i-think-theres-an-unfair-term-in-my-contract-what-can-i-do-

 

Send it to:-

 

Ms Deirdre Burns

Retail Director

Everything Everywhere

[email protected]

 

Let us know what they say.

[moneyproblem]

Hi Rebel,

 

 

We've sent a formal letter (email) of complaint. we sent it to Mr Swantee who is the chief exec of EE, and we rec'd a reply from his assistant. At first they weren't willing to do anything except offer a payment plan which would extend our contract by at least a year.

 

 

We pushed harder and they offered to reduce the charges by half, which we didn't agree to as we should've been contacted and the rate for the charges are no where to be found in the t&c.

 

 

We offered to pay the monthly price plan amount, as that is the only rate/figure found on the agreement and they can't charge at an arbitrary rate as the contract doesn't say they can do that.

 

 

They refused that offer and will only go so low as half the charges (plus tax of course).

 

 

Our discussion has pretty much come to an end, we asked for the deadlock letter. They promised to send it, and have not (that was weeks/a months ago).

 

 

This is where we're at currently... Should I send a LBA?

 

 

Incidentally, just received our recent bill, which has a refund of £12.43 on it. We have no idea what its for. Gonna call them and find out. I'm hoping they have done it in regards to us not having any services despite the fact that we've paid.

 

 

Then they would have officially shown that they agree that we should receive a refund for not having access to the service.

[rebel11]

You state that it's not in your contract, so the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 apply.

 

You could write back to Mr Swantee, explain that you believe they have breached the UTCCR 1999, send it Recorded Delivery.

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nireland/consumer_ni/consumer_protection_for_the_consumer_e/consumer_contracts_e/unfair_terms_in_consumer_contracts.htm

 

Hi Rebel,

 

 

We've sent a formal letter (email) of complaint. we sent it to Mr Swantee who is the chief exec of EE, and we rec'd a reply from his assistant. At first they weren't willing to do anything except offer a payment plan which would extend our contract by at least a year.

 

 

We pushed harder and they offered to reduce the charges by half, which we didn't agree to as we should've been contacted and the rate for the charges are no where to be found in the t&c.

 

 

We offered to pay the monthly price plan amount, as that is the only rate/figure found on the agreement and they can't charge at an arbitrary rate as the contract doesn't say they can do that.

 

They refused that offer and will only go so low as half the charges (plus tax of course).

 

 

Our discussion has pretty much come to an end, we asked for the deadlock letter. They promised to send it, and have not (that was weeks/a months ago).

 

 

This is where we're at currently... Should I send a LBA?

 

 

Incidentally, just received our recent bill, which has a refund of £12.43 on it. We have no idea what its for. Gonna call them and find out. I'm hoping they have done it in regards to us not having any services despite the fact that we've paid.

 

 

Then they would have officially shown that they agree that we should receive a refund for not having access to the service.

[moneyproblem]

excellent. thank you very much for the info. i'll keep this thread updated when I get a response. cheers

[moneyproblem]

update.

 

here is the reply i rec'd from orange

 

Thank you for your email dated 9 November 2014, I write to confirm the following.

 

I am sorry that you have not received the Deadlock letter you requested, I assure you this was requested for you on the 5 September 2014. Our Legal Department issue the Deadlock references and have confirmed that it is not necessary for you to obtain a deadlock when your complaint is has been ongoing for 8 weeks.

 

I refer to my email dated 25 August 2014 in which an offer was made to reduce the charges incurred by half. You exceeded your minutes by 796.40 minutes and were charged £246.80 excluding VAT. These charges are correct and due. It is your responsibility to monitor your usage. As mentioned in my previous email, should you remain unhappy with this offer, after eight weeks you are free to seek alternate advice from CISAS. Should the matter remain unresolved eight weeks from the date a complaint was first raised, a customer has the right to approach the Communications and Internet Services Adjudication Scheme (CISAS). Please note there are some exceptions to the scheme and some issues may fall outside the remit of CISAS and as such these matters would not be eligible for independent arbitration.

 

CISAS

24 Angel Gate, City Road, London EC1V 2PT

Telephone: 020 7520 3827

Fax: 020 7520 3829

Email: [email protected]

Website: http://www.cisas.org.uk

 

Should you wish to speak to me regarding the offer made, I can be contacted on 0800 079 0232. The office is open Monday to Friday 08:00 to 20:00 and Saturday 08:00 to 18:00. If for any reason I am unavailable, please leave a contact number and I will return your call as soon as possible.

 

I trust the above information is of assistance.

 

Yours sincerely

 

I want to send a reply back, but i don't want to give away too much of my case... is that a legit concern?

 

can someone look at my reply and advise? thanks in advance

 

Thank you very much for your quick reply.

 

I don't think you understand what the issue is.

 

As stated in my letter, I have had the opportunity to look at my rights via the ombudsman service and contacted Which.

 

My bone of contention is that Orange has breached the UTCCRs in the way they have acted regarding this

issue.

 

That is the reason i've decided to take Orange to court. This is a contracts issue.

 

For the record, I do agree that you have made an offer, but I too have made an offer. I offered you the amount

that you can only charge me, the monthly contractual amount for 900 minutes.

 

My contract with you is for 900 minutes and nothing more. Although you state that it's my responsibility

to make sure I don't go over this, it is also your responsibility to make sure that I stay within the contract.

 

When you allowed me to go over my minutes without notifying me, you breached the UTCCR.

 

The rate at which you have charged me for those minutes, as stated in my previous emails, are nowhere to be found

in the contract. It is completely outside of what is set within the contract.

 

This is again a breach of the UTCCR.

 

Even if you want to say that these minutes are outside of the contract and therefore wouldn't be represented within it,

this becomes another breach of the UTCCR as you have created a one-sided contract.

 

With just those in mind, you are contractually owed the rate stipulated within the contract for the extra minutes.

 

However, Orange continued to make mistakes by entering into an amended agreement, and barring my line so that

I could not actually use the services, yet you continued to charge me for those services that could not be used.

 

You can not charge for a service when that service is not being provided.

 

This is again a breach of the UTCCR.

 

In other words, you have received money for services you have not rendered as per our contract. When you contra

how much I owe you, which according to our contract can only be another month's worth of minutes (around £41 i believe),

Orange actually has money that should be returned to me.

 

The UTCCR regulates all contracts within the U.K. Therefore, a contract can not be found to be in breach of the UTCCR, and each party must also act in accordance with the regulations found within the UTCCR.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/contents/made

 

The purpose of the courts is to see that both parties are made to adhere to the legislation that governs this contract.

 

I am contractually obligated to pay for the extra minutes that i've used. And Orange is contractually obligated to abide by the terms and conditions found within said contract. So you can not charge any other rate than the one found in the contract.

 

If you are going to charge a different rate, then this must be agreed upon by both of us, else you are in breach of the UTCCR, and your own contract.

 

As i'm preparing to take this issue to court, I ask once again, if you believe that Orange is owed that amount, please point to where i can find that rate or instruction for going out of my minutes within the contract.

 

You clearly believe that I am wrong and Orange are owed £246.80 (excluding VAT). Please show me without breaching the UTCCR or amending the contract that I could possibly owe you such a figure. Show me where I have mis-understood the issue or missed vital information.

 

Failing that, I request that you reduce that debt to £41 as per your contract which is governed by the UTCCR, and turn my phone number back on.

 

Yours Sincerely

[moneyproblem]

Bumping for some help please!

[rebel11]

If your going to send that response, 'remove all mention of court'. Replace with 'I am considering further action on the matter'. Your likely to get a better response that way. It's succinct and to the point.

 

Also remember the court will see that you've done everything to resolve this matter. So the next port of call is the 'Ombudsman'.

[citizenB]

they are wrong in their interpretation of the deadlock letter - if no satisfactory conclusion has been arrived at, they are obliged to send you one.. this in order for you to escalate your complaint to the Ombudsman.

 

However, if they refuse to send you one - which they appear to be doing - you can enclose that letter with your complaint to the Ombudsman advising that it is obvious there is a deadlock - however Orange believe they do not have to put this in writing and you are taking their communication to be notice that they are not prepared to bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion.