Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • next time dont upload 19 single page pdfs use the sites listed on upload to merge them into one multipage pdf.. we aint got all day to download load single page files
    • If you have not kept the original PCN you can always send an SAR to Excel and they have to send you all the info they have on you within a month. failure to do so can lead to you being able to sue them for their failure.......................................nice irony.
    • Thank you and well done  for posting up all those notices it must have have taken you ages.. The entrance sign is very helpful since the headline states                    FREE PARKING FOR CUSTOMERS ONLY in capitals with not time limit mentioned. Underneath and not in capitals they then give the actual times of parking which would not be possible to read when driving into the car park unless you actually stopped and read them. Very unlikely especially arriving at 5.30 pm with possibly other cars behind. On top of that the Notice goes on to say that the terms and conditions are inside the car park so the entrance sign cannot offer a contract it is merely an offer to treat. Inside the car park the signs are mostly too high up and the font size too small to be able to read much of their signs. DCBL have not shown a single sign that can be read on their SAR. Although as they show photographs which were taken the year after your alleged breach we do not know what the signs were when you were there. For instance the new signs showed the charge was then £100 whereas your PCN was for £85. Who knows, when you were there perhaps the time was for 3 hours. They were asked to produce  planning permission which would have been necessary for the ANPR cameras alone and didn't do so. Nor did they provide a copy of the contract-DCBL  "deeming them disproportionate or not relevant to the substantive issues in the dispute" How arrogant and untruthful is that? The contract and planning permission could be vital to having the claim thrown out. I can find no trace of planning permission for the signs nor the cameras on Tonbridge Council planning portal. and the contract of course is highly relevant since some contracts advise the parking rouges that they cannot take motorists to Court. I understand that Europarks are now running that car park which means that nexus didn't  last long before being thrown out.....................................
    • Hi,   I am not sure if I posted this already here but I don't think I did. I attach a judgement that raises very interesting points IMO. Essentially EVRi did their usual non attendance that we normally see, however the judge (for the first time I've seen in these threads) dismissed the notice and awarded me judgement by default because their notice misses the "confirmation of compliance" paragraph. in and out in 3 minutes (aside from the chat at the end with the judge about his problems with evri) Redacted - evri CPR loss.pdf
    • Just to update this. I did apply to strikeout and they did not attend the hearing. I won by defualt and the hearing lasted 5 minutes (court only allocated 15). The judge simply explained that the only matter he was really considering is if the Defendant could have any oral evidence to defend the claim. However he said he had decided that based on their defence, and their misunderstanding of law, and their non attendence he did not think they had any reasonsable chance so he awarded me SJ + Costs on the claim form + the strikeout fee. Luckily when I sent the defendant the order I woke up the next day to a wire trasnfer for the full sum of the judgement
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Should a CCA be provided under SAR? - discussion


caro
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 3542 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I contacted the ICO some time ago to clear this up.

I got through to one of their people.

 

He told me that the request included any personal data, and that this would include any documents which contained such information.

When I asked about the requirements of the CCA he was somewhat bemused, they would not even consider the requirements of another act, the request is made under the DPA and that is all that they are concerned with.

 

Personally I have make many SAR requests and have always recieved a copy of the agrement when available.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 149
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

An agreement is not considered "personal data".

 

Really, and does this just apply to regulated agreements, what about an agreement to take a ride on a bus, what about an agreement which had not been executed, what about an agreement when one or both of the parties disputed that there was an agreement.

 

Personal data is personal data, I think you will find.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out shamrockers Claimants skeleton,para 15 for another reason not to comply with s78

 

file:///C:/Users/Dan/Downloads/aktiv-kapital-skeleton.pdf

 

Posted Today

WON lloyds walked away after second hearing £10,000 2014

 

WON Mbna after 3rd hearing £5,000, 2014

 

WON Barclaycard 1st hearing £2015, 4,500

Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that the data doesn't have to be provided in a particular format so long as it's understandable. As such the actual agreement may not be provided - though the data held within it could be provided albeit in a different format.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I made a SAR and one hadn't been provided I ask them if there is one available or is is the case they've only checked relevant filinig systems.

 

They've come back and reluctantly admitted they don't have one at all.

 

I contacted the ICO some time ago to clear this up.

I got through to one of their people.

 

He told me that the request included any personal data, and that this would include any documents which contained such information.

When I asked about the requirements of the CCA he was somewhat bemused, they would not even consider the requirements of another act, the request is made under the DPA and that is all that they are concerned with.

 

Personally I have make many SAR requests and have always recieved a copy of the agrement when available.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if this is already on here but anyway

 

http://ico.org.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/~/media/documents/library/Data_Protection/Detailed_specialist_guides/PERSONAL_DATA_FLOWCHART_V1_WITH_PREFACE001.ashx

 

‘Personal data’ is defined in Article 2 of the Directive by reference to

whether information relates to an identified or identifiable

individual.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

What not? Its information specifically relating to an individual that can be identified. If a contract signed by 2 parties isn't personal data, then what is?

This was discussed fully some considerable time ago the scenario is not new.

One of the reasons I remember is that the agreement leaves the creditors hand when it is passed to the data subject at the inception of the account.

 

 

For more information you will need to look through the CAG archives.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Notably above there are no exclusions for the type of document, this is irrelevant, the criteria is that it contains personal data. the only conflicting matter which may have an effect on production, is the associated inclusion of restricted information, ie information involving another source which the data controller feels should not be reproduced in an unredacted form.

This would not be a factor in an agrement.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes your right, for example instead if providing direct copies of statements, they provide the data in the statements.

 

But as I've said microfiched data should be supplied, Barclay's tried to argue otherwise and the ICO told they they were wrong. Therefore if you ask for everything on microfiche they should comply. I did this with one bank and they provided me with a microfiche of a statement which contradicted the info in the made up, sorry recon CCA.

 

I understand that the data doesn't have to be provided in a particular format so long as it's understandable. As such the actual agreement may not be provided - though the data held within it could be provided albeit in a different format.
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather a weak argument. Its still personal data and therefore if they've retained the data it should be disclosed.

 

 

This was discussed fully some considerable time ago the scenario is not new.

 

 

 

One of the reasons I remember is that the agreement leaves the creditors hand when it is passed to the data subject at the inception of the account.

 

 

For more information you will need to look through the CAG archives.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather a weak argument. Its still personal data and therefore if they've retained the data it should be disclosed.

 

Indeed, and being one of the ones who discussed it I can tell you that the ourtcome was ot what the Brigg would have you believe.

 

The simple fact is that we are talking about different things, the DPA requirement is not concerned about the form of the document, rather what it contains, it can be a bus ticket or a contract, if it contains identifiable personal data it must be disclosed.

  • Haha 1

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

.... Its still personal data and therefore if they've retained the data it should be disclosed.

 

 

ditto. if an app'n form, or an actual agreement, exists and contains identifiable data (which it wld do ordinarily, as defined, eg name/address), then it is data subject to a dsar according to the ICO guide/flow chart on what is such data (which says for eg that statements wld be subject to dsar cause for eg they have a name/address on it). and so, shld be produced if in a 'relevant filing system' (which it wld be ordinarily).

 

its ironic. a cca request doesn't have to produce an actual copy of an application (which some rely on as the agreement), a recon wld suffice to satisfy such a request. but, a dsar 'should' produce such a copy. as you say caro, sometimes a dsar produces a copy form, which hasnt been forthcoming re a cca request.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some organisation do as a matter of course supply agreements with the SARs, but many others stick by the " no obligation" statement.

 

 

As there is no specific requirement with in the DPA compelling the supply of the agreement it's not a case of being allowed to withhold them rather the lack of any compulsion to do so.

 

There would be a compulsion if it was classed as personal data.

 

I wonder why some DO provide the agreement if they don't have to.

 

BTW andy I do understand what you mean, but not how it's not personal, but if it appears an application is.

Edited by caro
The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There would be a compulsion if it was classed as personal data.

 

I wonder why some DO provide the agreement if they don't have to.

 

BTW andy I do understand what you mean, but not how it's not personal, but if it appears an application is.

 

 

Nowhere in the document posted here does is it stated specifically or even vaguely that a Consumer Credit Agreement is Personal Data.

 

 

I does I think follow that CCA 1974 provides for supply of regulated documents WITHOUT A SIGNATURE clearly places such document outside the realm of personal data.

 

 

I have in the past made CCA request on behalf of others and have always been supplied with the document (s) requested.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowhere in the document posted here does is it stated specifically or even vaguely that a Consumer Credit Agreement is Personal Data.

 

 

...

 

 

doesnt need to state specifically this document or that doc. if a doc has a name/address on it then it is identifiable, and therefore data as defined. the mention of statements is just a given eg in explanation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

doesnt need to state specifically this document or that doc. if a doc has a name/address on it then it is identifiable, and therefore data as defined. the mention of statements is just an eg in explanation.

Read the rest of my post Ford.

Agreements as such are not personal data I can make requests for such documents without having to justify my ID No Signature required for a CCA request???

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Read the rest of my post Ford.

Agreements as such are not personal data I can make requests for such documents without having to justify my ID No Signature required for a CCA request???

 

 

read mine, and the ico guide/flow chart :)

lack of a sig re a cca request doesnt make it not personal data as defined by the ico re a dsar.

a copy statement can come from a cca request (i've had one), but yet the ico regard statements as data!

if just a recon of terms/conditions, then is unlikely to be 'data'.

Link to post
Share on other sites

read mine, and the ico guide/flow chart :)

lack of a sig re a cca request doesnt make it not personal data.

a copy statement can come from a cca request (i've had one), but yet the ico regard statements as data!

It is a requirement to send only a current statement of the "account" not historical data.

This changes nothing imo.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a requirement to send only a current statement of the "account" not historical data.

...

 

yes, thats what was sent (copy final statement signed) in respect of.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There would be a compulsion if it was classed as personal data.

 

I wonder why some DO provide the agreement if they don't have to.

 

BTW andy I do understand what you mean, but not how it's not personal, but if it appears an application is.

 

Yes the mention of whether the document is an agreement or a statement is a read herring. The only thing which is relevant is that the document contains personal data in relation to the data subject, if it does it must be disclosed. An agreement must of necessity contain the information about the DS so therefore...

 

There is o restrictions mentioned anywhere in the act which preclude agreements or indeed any other kind of document, unless sensitive material of course.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing is also that if a copy is requested under a SAR and none is available, they will not send a set of T and Cs, which may add to the confusion, because of course the T and cs do not contain personal data, this may lead I suppose to the mistaken belief that an sar cannot produce an agreement.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nowhere in the document posted here does is it stated specifically or even vaguely that a Consumer Credit Agreement is Personal Data.

With respect this argument makes no sense. If a creditor wrights down particulars of a denbtor on a pice of paper and files it, it is personal data and is therefore required for disclosure, however if that piece of paper is an agreement it doesn't ?

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Of the 3 related instances I've found cause to complain to the ICO it decided the businesses had not complied with s7 of the dpa when failing to include agreements.

 

However; each were ongoing disputes to which the businesses had made reference to the agreements in prior correspondence so would presumably have been within its control and easily accessible.

 

Logically, the application contains personal data, the agreement which underpins the future credit token etc is not necessarily so unless individually negotiated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...