joint CiTi debt - my claim stayed, OH got default CCJ - didn't file defence - help

[imola186]

Hi I wonder if anyone can help with this query.

 

In 2012 I recieved a letter from Arrow stating we owed money to a company for £6750

which for a loan taken out in 2006.

 

I am convonced this was paid off with a consolidation loan but being so long ago I have no documentation.

 

the last course of action in a statement which they provided to me was on the 01/05/2006

although they said it was on the 01/07/2006 (no proof)

and a further letter stating a payment in 2009 which was rubbish.

 

after a long drawn out saga with me trying to get further information with no luck

they eventually filed a CCJ in January against me and my ex wife.

 

I responded with a defence and they did not reply to this so the judgement was stayed.

 

Because it was a joint CCJ I submitted the defence thinking it would be for both of us.

 

However on the 03/07/14 they were awarded a CCJ in default against my ex stating she did not file a defence.

 

She put in a N244 and we went to court yesterday to get the CCJ set aside.

The judge refused this because I did not mention her on the defence

and allowed the CCJ to be awarded against my ex only.

Mine is still stayed.

 

The real question is we raised the question of the debt being statute barred

.We had not made a payment in over 6 years (although I believe it has been paid off.

I am still living at the same address and have received no default notices

and even had a credit card from the same firm until recently.)

 

No acknowledgement of the debt was made in writing.

The CCJ was awarded outside of the 6 year timescale.

The judge said it was not statute barred as the CCJ was applied for in January

even though it wasnt granted until after the 6 year period.

 

A lot of forums I have read state that it would be statute barred

and we could apply to have the CCJ set aside as it was issued after the 6 year period.

Can anyone confirm this the judge couldnt have got it wrong could he.???

 

If the judge is right there is a lot of misleading information out there.

Even though my part of this remains stayed I am really annoyed with myself for not keeping any paperwork.

i think its a lesson for us all to keep stuff for at least 6 years.

 

If any one could answer this id be very grateful.

 

Thanks very much.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Andyorch
Paragraphs added

[AndyOrch]

Hi imola and welcome to CAG

 

Was there 2 claims (one for each of you) same claim number or different claim numbers? Did your wife acknowledge service?

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thread moved to Financial Legal Issues.

[imola186]

Hi thanks for your reply.

 

The claim was for both of us under the same reference number.

 

No she did not acknowledge service as we were under the impression

that one response would have been enough for both of us as it was the same claim number.

 

The judge said she should have acknowledged service which I sort of understand.

 

As I said they got a CCJ in default as the defence I put forward did not mention her

even though it was quite clearly for both of us.

 

Seems a bit strange to me but you know how the law works.

The main bit however is around whether it would be statute barred or not

and whether we could apply to the court again so she could get it set aside on that basis.

 

My part of it is still stayed and the judgement has only gone in her name.

 

Just to add to this

we never recieved any default notices etc from the original creditor who were CITI.

 

The debt Restons/Arrow said was assigned to them in 2013

but I had been in dialogue with them since 2012.

 

Its an absolute mess really and they were useless.

I asked for details of where the DD was paid from so I could try and check old accounts etc

but they said they couldnt supply any of that information.

Edited August 13, 2014 by imola186

[AndyOrch]

So two separate claim forms ...one with your name and the other in hers...both with the same claim number.Yours is stayed and hers is now a judgment.

 

I fail to see how that can be considering the debt is joint and several and given that both claims have the same number....in reality there should be one claim one number and both your names on that claim.

 

If you acknowledged that claimed number and submitted a defence to that claimed number the claim is stayed...for both parties.You cant split a claim number.

 

 

Turning to the attempted set a side and statute barred points......your defence was in response to the claim made against you and therefore there is no requirement to refer to your wife as the debt is joint and several..therefore Im at a loss at to what the DJ means by that point.

 

With regards to his comments re Statute barred if the claim form was issued on xxxx and there had not been any acknowledgement or payment within a six year period (5 in Scotland) up until that date ...as the claim date stops the clock on limitation purposes...then the debt is statute barred...if the debt was 5 years and 7 months for example since last acknowledgement/payment then it will not be statute barred.

 

Regards

Andy

[imola186]

Andy thats great thanks for clearing that point.

 

Lots of forums state that if the CCJ was issued after the 6 years

then it would be statue barred not the fact that in only has to be applied for at the Court to stop the clock.

 

Does not seem a lot we can do now apart from pay for a debt which I believe we have paid off.

 

The DJ said it was for us to prove it had been paid not for them to prove that we owe it.

 

This seems absurd as anyone could trawl through any old accounts

and if they havent any proof its been paid they would be snookered.

[AndyOrch]

I think you need to understand the claim form stops the clock not the judgment date...the claim form may be dated 7 months prior to the judgment date.

 

Are you sure yours is still stayed when did you last check?

[imola186]

Yes thanks I understand that now.

 

This is contrary o a lot of info on other forums.

 

Appreciate you clearing that up for me.

 

Yes I was at Court with my ex yesterday and went into the hearing.

 

There was no application to get my stay lifted and that remains stayed.

 

The DJ ruled that the CCJ will be my ex's name only and that they would have to apply to get it lifted.

 

I suspect as they are going to get paid they are not interested how they get it as long as they get it.

 

Having said that having gone through this experience I dont trust anything anymore.

I cant understand why they didnt apply to get the stay lifted within the 28 days.

[AndyOrch]

So if there was a period of 6 years prior to the date on the claim form that no acknowledgement or payment was made then you can make application to set a side on the basis of the debt being statute barred at the time the claim was submitted.

 

IM still not sure how one party can have a judgment and the others is stayed on the same claim number...totally impossible.

[citizenB]

It might be worth a Subject Access request to the original creditor - that should provide all the data for you to work out what happened prior to the claim.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387306-Full-Subject-Access-Request - it will cost you £10.00 and they have 40 calendar days to comply.

[renegadeimp]

Arrow and their 2009 phantom payment strikes again

[imola186]

Ha Ha yes it was defo a phantom payment.

 

In the defence which Arrow submitted to appose my ex getting the CCJ set aside

there was no mention at all about the defence which I had submitted.

 

It was just on the fact that my ex had not submitted a defence.

 

The whole thing seems really strange.

[dx100uk]

def time for an sar to CITI

 

sadly it might it be prudent to issue one each

 

incase there is data relevant to one person only that is important.

 

its worthy to note also

the 90% of CITI agreements were flawed through T&C's error

and the claimant will have one hell of a job getting a copy of the signed agreement & the CORRECT T&C's

 

you did send the claimant a CCA request didn't you?

 

dx

[imola186]

Hi

no we didnt send a CCA request what ever that is.

 

I was in constant contact with them though asking for details of the debt.

 

They did sent through a statement showing payments for the loan with the last payment on the 01/05/08

 

I was convinced this was paid off around the end of June 08 but I have nothing to prove that.

 

They said the last payment on the account was on the 01/07/08 and the account was defaulted on the 30/06/08.

 

There is no documentation in relation to this.

 

Oh yes and of course the phantom payment in 2009.

We have received no default notices on this account ever

and I cant believe they would just leave it all this time if the payments suddenly stopped.

 

I actually had a CITI credit card for all this time until it was transferred to another card company

and am still at this address.

 

Is there actually anything we can do now a CCJ has been issued.

 

My ex contacted the firm to arrange a payment schedule on the account even though we dont agree with it.

 

Just another thing

when I rang Northampton Court a month ago

they said that an application had been made on the 18 March to have my stay lifted but it was refused.

 

I only heard about this by chance as I had recieved no notification of this.

 

Really appreciate the time people are putting into answering these points.

 

Thanks very muchI only

[mjt2013]

IM still not sure how one party can have a judgment and the others is stayed on the same claim number...totally impossible.

 

It's not actually that unusual. Say for example A sues B and C who are husband and wife for an unpaid loan, both B and C are Defendants and the debt is joint and several. B may admit the debt and receive a judgment whereas C may defend the claim on the bias that she was unduly influenced by B to sign the loan agreement. In relation to C the claim could then be stayed if A doesn't intend to proceed with the claim against her.

 

Another way of looking at it would be if B didn't want to defend the claim, it would be very unfair for B to be forced to do so because C had filed a defence!

 

In relation to the OPs case, I think the judge who heard the application to set aside the judgment was harsh but technically correct because each Defendant should file their own defence (or a single defence signed by both) and therefore, in default of a defence, judgment was properly entered. The question then is just whether the OP was able to convince the judge that, nonetheless, the partner had a real prospect of successfully defending the claim and clearly this was not the case.

[dx100uk]

get a CCA request off to them today

 

and a letter asking for strict proof of

 

where

when

how

method

by whom

this payment was made.

 

i'm not sure on your wifes situation

it might be more prudent to get her CCJ setaside

rather than talking to these fleecers about payment!!

 

i'll let the others comment on that one.

 

but to me something smells here.

 

for your case

 

get that CCA request off pronto!

[sequenci]

Will they need to adhere to a CCA request post-judgment?

[AndyOrch]

It's not actually that unusual. Say for example A sues B and C who are husband and wife for an unpaid loan, both B and C are Defendants and the debt is joint and several. B may admit the debt and receive a judgment whereas C may defend the claim on the bias that she was unduly influenced by B to sign the loan agreement. In relation to C the claim could then be stayed if A doesn't intend to proceed with the claim against her.

 

Another way of looking at it would be if B didn't want to defend the claim, it would be very unfair for B to be forced to do so because C had filed a defence!

 

In relation to the OPs case, I think the judge who heard the application to set aside the judgment was harsh but technically correct because each Defendant should file their own defence (or a single defence signed by both) and therefore, in default of a defence, judgment was properly entered. The question then is just whether the OP was able to convince the judge that, nonetheless, the partner had a real prospect of successfully defending the claim and clearly this was not the case.

 

Yes I accept that MJ...its just given the mechanics of MCOL how it was possible....being able to deal/adjudge separately with the same claim number.As here is no provision to sign defences (jointly or separately)

So in effect provided they issue two claims (same number/particulars) 2 defendants MCOL can separate the process.

[AndyOrch]

Will they need to adhere to a CCA request post-judgment?

 

They are not compelled to.

[sequenci]

They are not compelled to.

 

Thanks for clarifying that Andy,

[imola186]

Thanks again.

 

I wish I had of come on here before going through all this as things may have turned out differently.

 

I am obviously going to pay half of this even though the judgement is in my ex's name.

 

A little selfish I know but is it best to leave things as they are for now

as I could really do without a CCJ being put against my name.

Another one.

 

As I said she has emailed them to arrange a payment schedule to at least get that sorted.

 

We then have time to reassess this to see if we have any other redress.

 

Are they obliged to accept a payment plan or can they ask for the ammount immediately

which will be impossible to pay.

[dx100uk]

sorry I though one was still running and stayed?

so is worth the CCA request as the OP has not yet done one?

might be useful?

dx

[AndyOrch]

Yes DX it is possible assuming the defendant 1 wishes to proceed and lift the stay...but then again they already have their judgment against defendant 2.

[imola186]

Hi a quick generic question.

 

 

After a long drawn out saga with a diva me and my ex wife had a ccj issued by the above firm.

 

 

I put in a defence and had my part stayed which is still the case.

 

 

My ex had the ccj issued in default as she didn't file a defence.

 

 

she sent in an offer of payment and has started paying even though she had no reply.

 

 

Today she had a reply saying the payment has been credited to her account but they can't agree

a formal payment plan without the receipt of a financial means questionnaire.

 

 

They also asked the question whether this is on behalf of the both of us.

 

 

Just so I know what I'm talking about.

 

 

Does she have to send one in ie can they demand one.

 

 

Also does she have to mention me as my part is stayed.

 

 

I need to do what ever to stop a ccj registered against me.

 

 

They never bothered challenging my defence but I could do without the hassle of attending court etc.

 

 

Thanks all.

[citizenB]

Can you provide some more information..

 

This was a joint account although claims were issued independently, yes ?

 

You submitted a defence and your claim was stayed. However, your ex wife didn't submit and a judgment against her subsequently awarded, yes ?

 

As this is a joint account, the company can pursue either jointly or independently. As long as your ex continues to make payments, then your claim will remain stayed - should she fail to make payments, then they can continue with their claim against you.

 

If your ex requires to vary the judgment order, then she will need to apply to the court to do this - use form N244 and unfortunately, she will have to provide a financial statement - probably best to get advice on completing one of those from National Debtline.

[citizenB]

As to whether your ex is going to make payments on your behalf, I am not sure about that ? They have issued the claim and been awarded judgment against your wife probably in the whole sum.

 

It looks to me as though they expect your ex to provide a financial statement that includes a contribution to the debt from you. Presumably if this happens, then they will also expect you to provide a financial statement as well to confirm the contribution from you is fair. If you disagree with this, they could apply to lift the stay on your claim.

 

This is only my opinion.