Help please

[trix22]

Hi I wondered if you could give me some advice on dealing with the DWP. In April 2010 I was called in to my local DSS offices and was asked if I knew why I was going to be questioned under caution, I said that I assumed it was because my middle son had moved back home a couple of weeks before as he had fell out with his girlfriend and as she had found out he had been out with someone else had reported to them that he was staying with me.

 

The interviewer said no it was to do with [edit] and that they had been looking into a report that we lived together and had done so since 2003, he said that they had watched my house in 2009 and apologised for taking a year to do anything? He asked where Mr xxxx was and I told him truthfully that [edit] had by coincidence turned up at my house a couple of weeks before in a state and I had taken him to his doctors where he had expressed a desire to commit suicide and was diagnosed with severe depression. He said to me that Mr. xxxx earned a lot of money?

 

I said that I didn't know what Mr xxxx had earned (he then showed me two letter s one from the DWP to Mr xxxx employers and one from the employer stating Mr xxxx wages) , I noted the date on one of the letters and told him that since just after the letter had been sent Mr. xxxxx had lost his employment and had no idea of why, this is why he was suicidal and he had not earned any monies since September of 2009 when the letters had been exchanged.

 

He was at a loss for words, then changed tack and said I had a lot of men visitors to my house including Mr. xxxxx father, I pointed out that Mr. xxxxx was the father of my youngest son and both he and his father visited, I also stated truthfully that Mr. xxxx visits had been more frequent since our son had become a father, Mr. xxxx adores his granddaughter and visited most weekends, he also had stayed for a number of weeks when he had a knee replacement and couldn't get around, he bought a single bed which we put in my living room as I had a downstairs cloakroom and zzzzl our son could drive Mr. xxxx around if he needed to go anywhere.

 

The interviewer then changed tack again and said my daughter [edit] visited a lot and she lived in Halesowen? I pointed out that I didn't have a daughter by the name of [edit] he then looked puzzled and asked my daughter's name. He then said Mr. xxxx senior lives in Shropshire he doesn't , I said no wrong again he lives in Wolverhampton.

 

He pointed to a pile of folders and said we have all this evidence against you and I told him that Mr. xxxx and I were friends, we had a son and granddaughter but our relationship had ended not long after our son was born mainly because of the age difference. I told him that I was about to leave Birmingham and that I had no intention of jeopardizing my move. The interview ended and he said something about the tapes to which I said ok and thought that was the end of that.

 

Mr. xxxx was even more distraught when I told him what had happened at that time His son was buying food for him and running him to the hospital as he had to attend due to his dubieties and was undergoing a trial drug. We managed to talk him into going to sign on and I told him he could stay until he felt able to cope. I rang my housing and council tax and paid what they told me to.

 

In the August I moved to out of Birmingham, Mr. xxxx was still with me as he had nowhere else to go, his father had moved from a 2 bed home to a one bed and his son lived in a bedsit so there wasn't anyone to look after him, he was still very depressed as he had never been unemployed.

The house I had moved too was a large 3 bed with two living rooms so Mr xxxx l had his own bedroom and his own living room, My elder son was still living with me but he only stayed for 9 weeks as he found it too far to travel to work, His son came every weekend with his daughter to stay as the bedsit was small and only had one bed.

 

I cannot remember exactly when but a letter came saying that we were to have a visit to ascertain whether we were living together as a couple, The visitor came and spoke to Mr. xxxx and myself and we said that although we were in the same house and obviously shared the kitchen and bathroom we mainly kept to our own space, we did eat together on a weekend as I cooked dinner for my sons and grandchildren, Mr xxxx mainly ate cooked and healthy food because of his diabetes and I was totally different and hardly cooked through the week. He went away and we thought that was that.

 

Some weeks later I received big pile of paper work saying that were taking me to court for fraud. I got a solicitor and appeared in Magistrates court in Birmingham a couple of times where I naturally pleaded not guilty, unfortunately on the first occasion my solicitor turned up late and on the second it was a different solicitor he stated that he had read the paperwork and I was doing the right thing as I was obviously not guilty. He then said we should take it to Crown Court and as I thought he knew what he was doing I said ok.

 

His practice got me a barrister and from then on it went down hill. I was beginning to have a breakdown as the Income support people had decided to stop my money and Mr xxxx was only getting signing on money, which wasn't enough to keep both of us and I had to keep having crisis loans to tide me over, that together with the fact that I hated the area and the fact that it took me two and a half hours to get back to Birmingham on the bus and Mr. xxxx had tried to find a place to live to try and help me out but with no success.

 

(Wolverhampton housing wouldn't sign him on as he was from Birmingham and Birmingham wouldn't sign him on as he was living in oooo, Solihull council did sign him on their register but told him he stood very little chance of getting anything) and to top it all he was told he wouldn't be eligible to any help getting a deposit for a private place.

 

My barrister asked why I didn't throw him out I explained all of the above and asked him how he thought my son and granddaughter would feel if I resorted to throwing him out and besides that I thought I would be more depressed if I was living on my own in a place I hated. My blood pressure was dangerously high and I was on anti depressants.

 

We got to crown court and unfortunately there was something going on so we had to move across the road where it was packed out, I had been ill since the Friday before as unfortunately my dogs had got out and attacked a dog and one of the dogs had bitten someone and because of what was going on I had agreed that the police put them down.

 

I couldn't face anymore and when my barrister suggested we broker a deal I was all for it, my brother was with me and was witness to what was said. As I had never denied that on occasions Mr. xxxx stayed with me it was suggested that I pleaded guilty to not informing the relevant people of him staying, and that I would agree to plead guilty of failure to inform a change of circumstances and that a figure would be worked out pro rata which we thought was a total of about £6000 for the DWP/Rent and council tax, for me to pay back.

 

For me to pay back, as Mr. xxxx had only been visiting some weekends and sometimes stayed when he had operations,I thought this would be a nominal figure. My barrister got me to sign a statement after speaking to the dwp solicitor and a new court date was made.

 

When my brother and I met up with my barrister at crown court he just said you will be asked to plead guilty to a charge of failure to disclose I said ok but his next statement rang alarm bells, he said if you go down I will come down stairs to see you, if not I will meet you here, my brother tried to say something but he stood up and shot in to the court, I was mortified and my brother said what's going on you are only pleading guilty to [edit] staying on the occasional weekend.

 

I went into the court room and my barrister spoke to the judge and said that I hadn't told the relevant people that Mr. xxxx visited because I knew how long it took them to sort out income support and that I was pleading guilty. That was not what I had said what I had said was I counted Mr Haycock as family and didn't realize that I should have informed them when he visited for a weekend etc.

 

I was sentenced to four months suspended for two years and had to attend probation for one year where I had to do an exercise on when to inform DWP. Also the judge said I owe anything between 0 and £42000.

 

Last year I got a letter from the DWP saying I owed them £24,000 and that they were going to stop money out of my pension, they informed me that they were allowed to stop 3/4 of my pension, I wrote to them and said that I had not been found guilty to fraud and that I disputed the money they said I owed, they wrote back and said I was guilty of fraud and that they were going to stop my pension.

 

I filed in a form and sent of receipts and was paying back £5 per week which I did protest about, two weeks ago they sent me another form which I duly filed in and I got a letter back saying they are going to stop me £86 pound a fortnight I phoned ad queried this and they said that they believe I haven't declared I have a partner living with me, I have declared that Mr xxxx still lives with me as he got a job 10 min away from the house I moved to and I did declare the money he pays me and what right do they have to tell me that I cannot have my sons father living with me as a friend.

 

He has his own room and pays his own bills, I am at my wits end I never pleaded guilty to fraud and I pay full rent and council tax. Again Mr xxxx has offered to move out but I do not see how they can dictate who I have living in my home as long as I declare that they are living there and pay rent and council tax accordingly.

 

I cannot find the court papers but know that I was found guilty on two counts of not informing of a change of circumstances, does this mean I was found guilty of fraud? and how does Mr. xxxx stand does he have to move out or can he remain living here as a lodger? is there anything I can do as if they stop me this money I am not going to be able to afford my live and feel that no one will help me against them.

[rebel11]

Hi trix22

 

Welcome to CAG

 

Spaces added. The guys will advise as soon as they become available.

[kk3852]

I have to say that I have tried to follow your story but it is very difficult and the stories about the dogs make things more confused. As far as I can tell, your ex moved into your property in either 2003 or 2009.

 

You were taken to Court and there must have been ample evidence for your barrister to advise you to plead guilty for a lesser period. Part of the evidence appears to be that your ex's employer held your address on their records and you have agreed that you were living in the same house. You contradict yourself in that you say that you were sharing a large house but also that he was only staying weekends ??

 

Whatever the situation was you pleaded guilty at Crown Court to a period of a failure to declare a change of circumstances - yes you pleaded guilty to fraud. Even though your your barrister 'did a deal' this only reduced the overpayment of benefit for sentencing purposes and the full amount of the overpayment still needs to be repaid.

[citizenB]

You might want to speak to someone at your local Citizen Advice Bureau.

[estellyn]

It sounds like you got bad advice last time, but sadly there is little you can do about that part now, except maybe sue the firm of solicitors for misadvice - in order to do this you would need to get legal help as to whether you have a case. Though I would say if you weren't advised to make a civil appeal against the living together decision, then you were definitely misadvised.

 

 

Regarding being accused of still living together as husband and wife, you should appeal the decision to stop your benefit (which is what you should have been advised to do before) and go to a civil tribunal to get a decision - I assume it is pension credit that has been stopped due to the DWP still considering you to be living together and not state pension.

 

 

Regarding overpayment recovery, there are grounds under hardship to request a reduced rate of recovery, but I'm doubtful whether this would be agreed to in a fraud case, and certainly not while you're considered to be living as husband and wife.

[trix22]

Sorry in a panic here, ok ill try to make it a bit easier.

 

· Myself and Mr xxxx had a relationship 1986-1989 we then split up but stayed friends as I had his son.

• Mr xxxx stayed for a total of about 15-20 weekends over period of maybe 4 years (2005-2009) in this period he also stayed for about 10 weeks after an operation.
  
• The only evidence they had was that Mr xxxx had his bank and driving insurance at my address. Although they had watched my house for some time and did not see Mr xxxx enter the house.
  
• My solicitor said they have no evidence and recommended i go to crown court
  
• My dogs were put down on Monday as i was in court Tuesday and not really thinking straight as I just wanted it all over so agreed a deal.
  
• I did not know i was breaking the law and agree that if I did owe any monies they should be returned
  
• I was sentenced for not telling the DWP when Mr xxxx stayed over the weekend lets be honest who would even think about telling the DWP?
  
• Judge stated that I owe anything between £0-£42000 and gave me 2year suspended.
  2012.
  
• I hear nothing until 2013, when I was told by the DWP that I owe £24000 I stated that I do not owe this amount and this was said in court, DWP said we are going to get £24000 back not giving me a choice and stated taking £10.00 a week.
  
• Last week they told me that because Mr xxxx is living in same house they are going to stop me £86 a week, this will leave me on £40.00 a week to live on which I can not do gas and electric will take most of this up alone.
  
• I went back to my solicitor for help and he stated because i was not convicted of fraud I should make myself bankrupt.
  
• No one seems to want to help me, I am not saying I was totally innocent but I should not have to be treated like this either.
  

[trix22]

Thanks for your advice, it is my state pension that they are stopping, I do noy claim anything else

[trix22]

You might want to speak to someone at your local Citizen Advice Bureau.

I have been to them and they do not really want to know

[estellyn]

Thanks for your advice, it is my state pension that they are stopping, I do noy claim anything else

 

 

Though your state pension can have an amount deducted due to an overpayment (whether fraud or not), it can't be stopped because you are considered to be living together, as it is a contributory based benefit. So I'm confused as to what is being stopped now due to your 'living together'.

[id6052]

I went back to my solicitor for help and he stated because i was not convicted of fraud I should make myself bankrupt.

 

I would suggest consulting a different solicitor.

 

As you pleaded guilty to benefit fraud, making yourself bankrupt would not help, as fraud overpayments are excluded from bankruptcies

[antone]

Thanks for your advice, it is my state pension that they are stopping, I do noy claim anything else

 

Could it be State Pension Credit that is the issue? Because I agree with other posters - this is a bit confusing.

 

Or, are they taking amounts from your State Retirement Pension because you were previously overpaid a different benefit? That's also a possibility. And how could any solicitor argue that you were not convicted of benefit fraud when you pled guilty and were sentenced by a court for that very offence?

[Shoelover]

I'm confused too. State retirement pension is not means tested- so you could be living with a millionaire & it would not make a jot of difference.

I also thought overpayments couldn't be recovered from SRP but I could be wrong there.

 

Also confused as to what your question is?

[Shoelover]

Sorry as an added note- if the overpayment was considered fraud (and if you were convicted it will be) it wouldn't be taken into any bankruptcy- you'd still have to pay it back

[abc123def]

I think it is the recovery of the overpayment (fraud) that is being deducted from the pension which is normal. However they seem to be taking an amount out that would not leave her enough to live on so seem to be assuming that either she is living as a couple with the man in her house which is a common assumption when you have previously had a child together, or that the income this tenant is providing is income and that in addition to what is left of the pension is enough to live on.

 

If they are going on the basis of the first assumption you need to appeal that decision, otherwise it may well be a correct calculation. Sounds like you need some help finding out what is going on and how they came to their decision. Can you go to a different branch of the CAB who might be more helpful? Just to clarify this point?

 

As said above, bankruptcy would not deal with this debt and you would still need to pay it back.

[Shoelover]

If you write to the benefit office explaining that the rate of recovery is leaving you in hardship they may consider reducing it. Worth a try anyway

[trix22]

Though your state pension can have an amount deducted due to an overpayment (whether fraud or not), it can't be stopped because you are considered to be living together, as it is a contributory based benefit. So I'm confused as to what is being stopped now due to your 'living together'.

 

Hi I get a state pension of 124 and they want to take 86 per week out of it. As my rent is 90 per week I have asked them how they think I will pay bills etc.

[trix22]

I would suggest consulting a different solicitor.

 

As you pleaded guilty to benefit fraud, making yourself bankrupt would not help, as fraud overpayments are excluded from bankruptcies

 

As far as I was aware I was pleading guilty to not letting them know when Mr. X X visited his son and granddaughter I was not pleading guilty to fraud as I also had visits from my son's and my son's grandfather also came to stay but they did not mention this in court although they only had records of Mr xx senior coming to my house.

[estellyn]

Hi I get a state pension of 124 and they want to take 86 per week out of it. As my rent is 90 per week I have asked them how they think I will pay bills etc.

 

 

 

 

 

How were you managing to pay rent, bills and buy food on £124 a week?

 

 

Is there more than one benefit overpayment being deducted from your state pension?

 

 

Your living situation has no bearing on the rate of overpayment deduction except when deciding hardship.

[estellyn]

As far as I was aware I was pleading guilty to not letting them know when Mr. X X visited his son and granddaughter I was not pleading guilty to fraud as I also had visits from my son's and my son's grandfather also came to stay but they did not mention this in court although they only had records of Mr xx senior coming to my house.

 

 

I think you were actually pleading guilty to fraud - deliberately not informing of a change of circumstances with the intent of claiming benefits you were not entitled to.

[estellyn]

I think it is the recovery of the overpayment (fraud) that is being deducted from the pension which is normal. However they seem to be taking an amount out that would not leave her enough to live on so seem to be assuming that either she is living as a couple with the man in her house which is a common assumption when you have previously had a child together, or that the income this tenant is providing is income and that in addition to what is left of the pension is enough to live on.

 

 

Living situation has no effect on rate of overpayment recovery, it only becomes an issue when hardship is being considered.

[trix22]

I think it is the recovery of the overpayment (fraud) that is being deducted from the pension which is normal. However they seem to be taking an amount out that would not leave her enough to live on so seem to be assuming that either she is living as a couple with the man in her house which is a common assumption when you have previously had a child together, or that the income this tenant is providing is income and that in addition to what is left of the pension is enough to live on.

 

If they are going on the basis of the first assumption you need to appeal that decision, otherwise it may well be a correct calculation. Sounds like you need some help finding out what is going on and how they came to their decision. Can you go to a different branch of the CAB who might be more helpful? Just to clarify this point?

 

As said above, bankruptcy would not deal with this debt and you would still need to pay it back.

 

Hi I can see why they think we are living together as a couple but as he didn't come to stay until 2010 which was 20 years since we had parted I think k this is a bit far fetched he is actually a good friend and has far more in common with my elder children who are his age group all the family class him as part of our family as they have known him 30 odd years

[Shoelover]

Recovery rates from benefits tend to be a prescribed amount. I think the o/p is possibly misunderstanding what the various deductions & her current award.

 

I'd suggest she asks for a written statement of reasons.

 

If you have housing costs then apply for HB- if you are honest on the claim form the worst they can do is say no !