How is "parking" actually defined?

[BigTony1980]

Bus stops are defined in the TSRGD 2002 not in the 'RTA' whatever that is? Bus stops do not need a TRO as they are defined in law by the schedule I posted and their are two definitions of a Bus lane, outside London in the Transport Act 2000 inside London using the definition in the TSRGD 2002, none of the Road Traffic Acts define a Bus lane or stop.

 

The RTA is the Road Traffic Act and it defines what, legally, is a bus. As I have stated, the minute a council use the word bus, so long as its not a "local" bus lane or stop, a coach can use it and there isn't a thing a statutory instrument, regulation or otherwise can do about it. I don't know the exact section number off the top of my head but ill get it for you later if needs be...

[BigTony1980]

My local authority complies with the law and changed all its non compliant bus stops marked by a 'bus stop' bay and double yellow lines to Bus stop clearways years ago, anywhere that hasn't has 'free' parking as the bays are meaningless.

 

And like I say...its the use if the word bus that's the problem. They can't change the word bus even though they all try. This is why most wardens and camera operatives send unlawful tickets out, they don't get that the word bus is not defined by any regulation, TRO or other...its in the Road Traffic Act and there's nothing they can do about it.

[green_and_mean]

Secondly, any road marking, stop or anything you want to label that has the word bus in it allows a coach or a 12 seater in it, use it or whatever. It can only be restricted by using the word "local" in front of it but these are highly political as local bus lanes are often empty and motorists expect coaches and even mubibuses to be in them...hence why they are not used much. Only inner inner city roads tend to get them...

 

 

Exceptions in favour of buses

3. Nothing in paragraph 2 applies to thedriver of a busbeing used in the provision of a local service who causes the bus tostop within the clearway for so long

[BigTony1980]

The only place you can legally park a coach is in a 'coach bay' if you wait anywhere else that is restricted longer than it takes to drop off or pick up you are liable for a PCN, you can argue 'til the cows come home but thats the truth whether you like it or not!

 

 

No, that's just not right. A coach can stop in a bus stop as long as is necessary to puck up his passengers if he can show he isn't being unreasonable (they are due our anytime now according to his instrucrions). So long as he us in the vehicle, any pcn issued is unlawful....whether YOU like it or not.

 

You seem to try and distinguish the labe/park/stop but you are missing the authority that allows that vehicle to be there...the vehicle itself. If its a bus, it can do anything unless its a local bus lane/stop...whether you find an authority or not. It's law, not by-law. Law wins over by-law.

[green_and_mean]

And like I say...its the use if the word bus that's the problem. They can't change the word bus even though they all try. This is why most wardens and camera operatives send unlawful tickets out, they don't get that the word bus is not defined by any regulation, TRO or other...its in the Road Traffic Act and there's nothing they can do about it.

 

I think you will find daft coach drivers are the main problem! Bus is defined by law, coach is defined by law, bus lane is defined by law, bus stop is defined by law none in your Road Traffic Act. In regards to bus lanes any vehicle with 8 seats plus driver is allowed in, thats the law, the only bus stop that exists in law is a bus stop clearway, which only local scheduled buses can use.........that is the LAW!!!!

[green_and_mean]

I give up, you are obviously the expert despite quoting a law you have never read as it doesn't exist, carry on parking your coach in bus stops but I suggest you find another forum if you want help with any PCNs you get!

[BigTony1980]

Section 15(9) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines bus as

 

 

"bus” means a motor vehicle that—

(a) has at least four wheels,

 

(b) is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers,

 

© has more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat, and

 

(d) has a maximum design speed exceeding 25 kilometres per hour;

 

 

This is primary legislation and it is the long definition of a bus.

 

 

Any other legislation is inferior to primary legislation. This is the authority that permits a coach/minibus to use a bus lane or a bus stop, clearway or otherwise. Why? Because the minute a council labels said item with the word bus, this opens up the definition above.

 

 

Argue amongst yourself, you are wrong on your application of bus stops and bus lanes. Its nothing whatsoever to do with the type of road or lane r anything....its to do with the vehicle using the thing.

[BigTony1980]

I give up, you are obviously the expert despite quoting a law you have never read as it doesn't exist, carry on parking your coach in bus stops but I suggest you find another forum if you want help with any PCNs you get!

 

Of course I have read it, we get bus lane contraventions all the time in work... by people in councils that are given some element of authority and they ticket willy nilly. That's why our TM deals with them and bus lane offences he has never lost one. Your authorities may be credible (and indeed convince otherwise innocent drivers to pay up) but in law, they are wrong. The RTA definition of bus trumps all of your above points. The TPT always uphold our challenged PCN's because council officers just don't know the law as you have clearly demonstrated. You seem to think that regulations from different sources trump that legislation I haven't read because it doesn't exist..... but it doesn't.

 

 

Thank you for your input to the OP though, I originally asked about car parking tickets but it ended up on a debate about bus lanes, bus stops and registered services. What you have done is illustrate exactly why most people end up paying... you have cloudied the waters with "stuff" when the original rules trump your authorities...the rules all bus and coach drivers were taught.

 

 

"Daft" coach drivers actually know the law but cant give a legal authority. Council workers don't know the law, give a weak authority that bamboozles the driver (as he knows they are wrong but cant give an authority) and you sit there all proud with yourself that you have won when the reality is you haven't... you have just bamboozled a driver that knew the law but had no authority.

 

 

Isn't this the reason why councils issuing tickets in the first place exist? Innocent drivers that cant afford legal redress and end up just paying anyway?

 

 

We always win in TPT. We have had several bus lane infringements that have gone all the way in the 4 years I have been here. Most don't..most get dropped at the 11th hour. Those that run the risk...lose. Why? Because the RTA trumps anything else out there, whether you accept it or not.

[green_and_mean]

Of course I have read it, we get bus lane contraventions all the time in work... by people in councils that are given some element of authority and they ticket willy nilly. That's why our TM deals with them and bus lane offences he has never lost one. Your authorities may be credible (and indeed convince otherwise innocent drivers to pay up) but in law, they are wrong. The RTA definition of bus trumps all of your above points. The TPT always uphold our challenged PCN's because council officers just don't know the law as you have clearly demonstrated. You seem to think that regulations from different sources trump that legislation I haven't read because it doesn't exist..... but it doesn't.

 

 

Thank you for your input to the OP though, I originally asked about car parking tickets but it ended up on a debate about bus lanes, bus stops and registered services. What you have done is illustrate exactly why most people end up paying... you have cloudied the waters with "stuff" when the original rules trump your authorities...the rules all bus and coach drivers were taught.

 

 

"Daft" coach drivers actually know the law but cant give a legal authority. Council workers don't know the law, give a weak authority that bamboozles the driver (as he knows they are wrong but cant give an authority) and you sit there all proud with yourself that you have won when the reality is you haven't... you have just bamboozled a driver that knew the law but had no authority.

 

 

Isn't this the reason why councils issuing tickets in the first place exist? Innocent drivers that cant afford legal redress and end up just paying anyway?

 

 

We always win in TPT. We have had several bus lane infringements that have gone all the way in the 4 years I have been here. Most don't..most get dropped at the 11th hour. Those that run the risk...lose. Why? Because the RTA trumps anything else out there, whether you accept it or not.

 

 

You are talking out of your proverbial backside the Road Traffic Act 1988 doesn't trump all other legislation and simply defines a 'bus' in relation to the wearing of seat belts which once again has nothing to do with parking.

You bought up Bus lanes not me and continue to use them to prove an incorrect point about 'bus stops', which you cannot park a 'coach' in despite your insistence.

I told you the legal definition of 'parking' at the start of this thread and it was you that started waffling on about being in the vehicle and other non relevant points. The reason people get tickets isn't because Councils do not know the law its because drivers do not and refuse to accept the fact! Of course you are free to carry on thinking the RTA 1988 is the primary legislation for 'parking' when in fact there isn't a single mention of parking in it and ignore the fact you haven't a clue what you are on about because if you did you would not have asked what 'parking' was in the first place.

[sailor sam]

No, that's just not right. A coach can stop in a bus stop as long as is necessary to puck up his passengers if he can show he isn't being unreasonable (they are due our anytime now according to his instrucrions). So long as he us in the vehicle, any pcn issued is unlawful....whether YOU like it or not.

 

You seem to try and distinguish the labe/park/stop but you are missing the authority that allows that vehicle to be there...the vehicle itself. If its a bus, it can do anything unless its a local bus lane/stop...whether you find an authority or not. It's law, not by-law. Law wins over by-law.

 

Not if the bus stop is a 'restricted one' defined by a thick yellow line running though it kerb-side and supported by a yellow plate with the wording "no stopping except buses" and a clearway symbol upon it, UNLESS the vehicle is operating on a stage carriage service of which the bus stop is part of it's registered route.

 

Even a local service bus operating a private hire or running out of service cannot stop at a restricted bus stop. Similar rules apply to bus lanes and bus gates. Bus lanes which are part of a registered stage carriage route are restricted to buses (or coaches) operating on that service. Hackney carriages are also allowed to use bus lanes BUT private hire 'taxis' are not. A coach operating on an excursion, tour or private hire come under different legislation to coaches operating on a registered stage carriage service.

[Jamberson]

A coach can stop practically anywhere to pick up passengers. It cannot wait where it wants, including car parks, without paying the due charge. The original question revolves around the issue of whether the coach is "parked", if the driver is on the scene. As I've said several times, yes it is.

[sailor sam]

Looking at the original question and speaking as a former coach (and bus) driver myself, i've yet to come across a destination which hasn't had some form of parking facilities for coaches. Equally, I haven't come across many car parks where you could get a coach in, let alone park. Therefore there are occasions where the driver may have to park some distance away from where he has dropped his passengers off.

 

Most large towns and cities have parking facilities for coaches of some sort. When operating a private hire, the hirer would normally pay for any parking charges (this was the policy at the firms I worked for) but obviously when operating an "off the board" or excursion, then the coach operator would reimburse the driver for parking.

 

I think that most local authorities recognise that unlike a car, you just can't park a coach anywhere. But as it has already been said, coaches can drop off and pick on double yellows providing that they are not doing so near a junction, on a bend or in any other place which would cause a hazard to other road users and they are not "parked" for longer than necessary.

[BigTony1980]

Not if the bus stop is a 'restricted one' defined by a thick yellow line running though it kerb-side and supported by a yellow plate with the wording "no stopping except buses" and a clearway symbol upon it, UNLESS the vehicle is operating on a stage carriage service of which the bus stop is part of it's registered route.

 

Even a local service bus operating a private hire or running out of service cannot stop at a restricted bus stop. Similar rules apply to bus lanes and bus gates. Bus lanes which are part of a registered stage carriage route are restricted to buses (or coaches) operating on that service. Hackney carriages are also allowed to use bus lanes BUT private hire 'taxis' are not. A coach operating on an excursion, tour or private hire come under different legislation to coaches operating on a registered stage carriage service.

 

You're doing it again! If a bus stop is restricted, it has to be labelled as "local bus stop". No other restrictions actually legally restrict a bus stop as you describe. You guys may send out a pcn but its the vehicle...not the scenario that permits a bus stop and its use. You are trying to change the bus stop to a restricted bus stop by putting lines, clearways or pink fluffy pom poms on it and called it restricted but in reality, you issue a pcn for a 12 seater minibus or a coach and it is issued wrong and will be successfully challenged at the TPT.

 

Its because you are restricting a bus stop using the wrong method. It has to be labelled a "local" bus stop, only then is it restricted. But the council generally wont let them do that because it is "too" restrictive and generally it is reserved only for the inner most parts of city centres.

[BigTony1980]

A coach can stop practically anywhere to pick up passengers. It cannot wait where it wants, including car parks, without paying the due charge. The original question revolves around the issue of whether the coach is "parked", if the driver is on the scene. As I've said several times, yes it is.

 

And that is the question... waiting/stopping/parking.... there are blurred lines. Intentional lines I might add but still cause confusion.

[BigTony1980]

Looking at the original question and speaking as a former coach (and bus) driver myself, i've yet to come across a destination which hasn't had some form of parking facilities for coaches. Equally, I haven't come across many car parks where you could get a coach in, let alone park. Therefore there are occasions where the driver may have to park some distance away from where he has dropped his passengers off.

 

Most large towns and cities have parking facilities for coaches of some sort. When operating a private hire, the hirer would normally pay for any parking charges (this was the policy at the firms I worked for) but obviously when operating an "off the board" or excursion, then the coach operator would reimburse the driver for parking.

 

I think that most local authorities recognise that unlike a car, you just can't park a coach anywhere. But as it has already been said, coaches can drop off and pick on double yellows providing that they are not doing so near a junction, on a bend or in any other place which would cause a hazard to other road users and they are not "parked" for longer than necessary.

 

Yes, this is my point! But how do you deal with rural areas where they have converted an old barn or an old warehouse into something like a museum or a place of public interest where coaches have not been catered for? Basically, where there isn't anywhere but a car park to go... if I dont have any small change on me and the alternative is to move down the bottom out the way as best I can, what else are you meant to do if you literally dont have the £1.20. Nothing but run the risk. Then you have to argue that you wernt parked and merely stopped waiting for your passengers.

 

I was hoping to find anyone that mighthave been in a similar poistion and been forced to argue that they hadnt been parked because they had not left the vehicle unattended and wanted to see what happened..

[Jamberson]

And that is the question... waiting/stopping/parking.... there are blurred lines. Intentional lines I might add but still cause confusion.

 

And I answered it yet again. Here it is once more: You are waiting whether or not you are attending the vehicle.

 

It seems to me that you won't be satisfied with this answer, and want a different one. There is a site called Pepipoo. Go on there and ask them the same thing, and see if you get an answer you prefer.

[sailor sam]

You're doing it again! If a bus stop is restricted, it has to be labelled as "local bus stop". No other restrictions actually legally restrict a bus stop as you describe. You guys may send out a pcn but its the vehicle...not the scenario that permits a bus stop and its use. You are trying to change the bus stop to a restricted bus stop by putting lines, clearways or pink fluffy pom poms on it and called it restricted but in reality, you issue a pcn for a 12 seater minibus or a coach and it is issued wrong and will be successfully challenged at the TPT.

 

Its because you are restricting a bus stop using the wrong method. It has to be labelled a "local" bus stop, only then is it restricted. But the council generally wont let them do that because it is "too" restrictive and generally it is reserved only for the inner most parts of city centres.

 

Excuse me? "Doing it again" when it was my first post on the thread? I detect an attitude problem here when the OP isn't liking what he is hearing!

 

For your information I have been on the receiving end of this in may different ways (both as a coach and a bus driver) and I can categorically tell you that what I posted earlier is FACT whether you like it or not.

 

As someone has previously said, a restricted bus stop dosn't need a traffic order and is exactly what it says on the tin; RESTRICTED meaning that only buses operating in a stage carriage capacity relating to the route to which the bus stop is part of, can legitimately stop there. If however the bus stop is 'unmarked' by the thick yellow line and no supporting sign, then the stop is not restricted thus meaning a coach could use it.

 

While working at West Midlands Travel as a union rep, I once had to deal with a driver who had stopped on a restricted bus stop while running off service to wait for a colleague to visit an adjacent cash point. He received a ticket which we appealed using your argument. The appeal failed and we were "educated" then about when you can use a restricted bus stop and when you cannot.

 

The yellow plate sign merely has to display the wording "Except buses" for the stop to be restricted although "Except Local Buses" is a permitted variant. However, ultimately it would be for an adjudicator to decide each particular case but that would be a bit of a gamble if you were not operating in service when the PCN was issued.

[Mickeymoo1977]

I said Bus Stop, I never mentioned Bus lanes that was you and has nothing to do with parking and a bus is 8 passengers NOT 9.

 

 

I think you'll find that a bus is a vehicle which has MORE than 8 passenger seats. 8 passenger seats or less is classed as a taxi and or private hire vehicle which is governed by your local licencing and does not fall under the rules/regulations/descriptions in any way shape or form as a bus.

 

 

That is why the biggest vehicles that 'Taxi / Private Hire' firms do is an 8 seater, some taxi / private hire firms do offer a Minibus service (9 passengers or more) but they are not operated under local licencing (Your council) the are operated under VOSA.

 

 

Just though I'd clear that little bit up for you, to save confusion :o)

[green_and_mean]

I think you'll find that a bus is a vehicle which has MORE than 8 passenger seats. 8 passenger seats or less is classed as a taxi and or private hire vehicle which is governed by your local licencing and does not fall under the rules/regulations/descriptions in any way shape or form as a bus.

 

 

That is why the biggest vehicles that 'Taxi / Private Hire' firms do is an 8 seater, some taxi / private hire firms do offer a Minibus service (9 passengers or more) but they are not operated under local licencing (Your council) the are operated under VOSA.

 

 

Just though I'd clear that little bit up for you, to save confusion :o)

 

I mean't 9 including the driver but you are correct the thread has been a bit confusing!

[Mickeymoo1977]

I mean't 9 including the driver but you are correct the thread has been a bit confusing!

 

In which case, you're still wrong. 9 including the driver is still a taxi/private hire, as there are 8 'passenger' seats and 1 drivers seat, making your 9 'including' the driver.

 

It is governed by how many passenger seats there are and not the total number of seats.

 

There has to be 10 seats over all for it to be a bus, 9 passenger & 1 driver... Simples!

[sailor sam]

Category D1 (mini-buses) = between 9 and 16 passenger seats

Category D (buses) = Any bus with more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg

 

https://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_4011275.pdf