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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Trader listing cars as "spares or repair"


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VERY VERY SNEAKY

 

try highlighting the text in the blank spot between the T&C's and the pictures, hidden text using white font on white background

 

not sure about the legalities but the term barge pole and wont touch come to mind

 

edit: ignore this its now got a backgroud image on it so shows the text

Please note:

 

  • I am employed in the IT sector of a high street retail chain but am not posting in any official capacity,so therefore any comments,suggestions or opinions are expressly personal ones and should not be viewed as an endorsement or with agreement of any company.
  • i am not legal trained in any form.
  • I have many experiences in life and do often use these in my posts

if ive been helpful kick my scales, if ive been unhelpful kick the scales of the person more helpful :eek:

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How are they allowing test drives unless the car is roadworthy?QUOTE]

 

They don't declare the car is un roadworthy just that it is sold as spares or repairs because it has a suspected fault. Seems honest to me. It's the ones who don't declare faults and sell as good that are dodgy.

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+1 to Helios above, looked thru his feedback, seems to do exactly what he says on the tin to me.

 

 

Pile em high sell em cheap, told at the very start spares or repairs, no comebacks, decent business model I reckon, same as buying at BCA except you can drive and test it and walk away if you don't want it.

 

 

Very novel and good idea if you ask me, but certainly not for the faint hearted or nervous buyer.... but they do tell you that!

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He's not 'asking' in that sense, the cars are sold by no reserve auction on ebay quite clearly stating that you must read the description fully and understand that car is sols as 'not fit for any particular purpose under the RTA, etc'. They declare known faults but quite openly say that you may well have to spend further money on the car.

 

 

Its also stated that after winning the auction you are welcome to view, inspect, and test drive the car for as long as you want to, and if you don't want to buy it then you can do so with no hard feelings. Looking thru the feedback a few customers do decide to do this, but the remarks do state that they are pleasant to deal with.

 

 

It also states that once you have bought it they won't entertain any comebacks whatsoever.

 

 

It's just like going to a car auction really, except that you can inspect properly and test drive and walk away.

 

 

Looking at the sale prices these cars go for trade money and I would think they have VERY short profits on most of them... but sell 40 cars a week at £150 profit, that's £6000 a week.

 

 

I think it's a good business model albeit with very tight margins, and good luck to them.

 

 

Although if you don't know anything about cars and want the full retail treatment then by all means pay £1000 more at a dealership, customer's choice really.

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Not sure that the seller can allow a test drive unless the car has insurance relating to it and it is taxed (unless it's on trade plates and the trader is present in the car).

 

Also. providing the seller is a trader, online auctions are subject to similar conditions under the SOGA as buying normally. However, normal auctions (where as the auction house isn't the actual vendor of the vehicle) don't.

 

Unless the rules have totally changed from when the last time I checked, it is still illegal to remove (or attempt to remove) a consumer's statutory rights, meaning the terms such as "no refunds, sold as seen or no comebacks" would be considered as doing just that, in my opinion.

 

Selling a car to a member of the public for "spares or repair only" would suggest to me that the car is being sold as "non drive-able" meaning that it would not be legal to drive it away at the point of sale. In those circumstances, I can't see how it would be legal to advertise that the car can be test driven as that surely implies the car is being sold as "fit for the purpose" if it can be driven.

 

Having said all that, I too agree on one hand that the trader here is being completely open and frank about what he is selling which is obviously better than hiding the fact the cars have defects, BUT that dosn't necessarily mean that he is fully complying with consumer law when selling in this way to the general public.

 

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Sam, under these circumstances, the trader could only be done under soga if the car was beyond repair or a large %age of the components were unusable---IMHO.

The only other thing he may be doing wrong is not clearly advertising and enforcing that the purchaser MUST have the car transported away from his premises.

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IMO he hasn't done anything wrong.

He is very clear that the car is for parts and also gives the opportunity to have it checked by a mechanic for an entire day.

If not happy you can still walk away.

Sounds fair to me.

Potential bargain to be acquired.

P.S. I'm not connected to the seller and I'm not a car trader, I just think that he could sell these scraps as good cars and disappear as many do, but he wants no come back.

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I would bear all the below in mind:

 

 

 

He has 6000+ feedback with very few negatives

 

 

However, out of those negatives and presuming some cars are sold outside of ebay, albeit on the same terms, someone, somewhere will have bought a car from him with either known or unknown faults, tried to get a refund or repair and been turned down. This is inevitable given the numbers involved.

 

 

Out of those, someone, somewhere will have gone to CAB or TS to complain, I would be staggered if this has not happened.

 

 

In which case TS or CAB will have looked at this operation and decided it is perfectly OK.

 

 

You just can't sell that volume of cars and not be known to them.

 

 

As far as driving away / test drives go, as long as the car has a current MOT and he has demonstration cover on his insurance, then it is not necessarily or even likely to be unroadworthy, merely sold on the basis that it is for spares or repair.

 

 

To be fair to the man, allowing you a whole day of testing to decide if you want to buy or not appears supremely fair to me.

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I would bear all the below in mind:

 

 

 

He has 6000+ feedback with very few negatives

 

 

However, out of those negatives and presuming some cars are sold outside of ebay, albeit on the same terms, someone, somewhere will have bought a car from him with either known or unknown faults, tried to get a refund or repair and been turned down. This is inevitable given the numbers involved.

 

 

Out of those, someone, somewhere will have gone to CAB or TS to complain, I would be staggered if this has not happened.

 

 

In which case TS or CAB will have looked at this operation and decided it is perfectly OK.

 

 

You just can't sell that volume of cars and not be known to them.

 

 

As far as driving away / test drives go, as long as the car has a current MOT and he has demonstration cover on his insurance, then it is not necessarily or even likely to be unroadworthy, merely sold on the basis that it is for spares or repair.

 

 

To be fair to the man, allowing you a whole day of testing to decide if you want to buy or not appears supremely fair to me.

 

This surely is the potential flaw in his policy. I don't think you can legally sell a car as "spares or repair" to a member of the public when it can be driven away AND satisfy the SOGA. Surely by allowing test drives, it contradicts the fact that the vehicle is being sold as "spares or repair". For a vehicle to be driven on a public road, it has to be in a road worthy condition, covered by insurance and taxed. I would be interested to hear what TS's opinion would be on this.

 

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By selling as Spares or Repairs the seller has informed the potential buyer that there is no guarantee of the vehicle working, therefore should you find a fault shortly after you have bought the vehicle then you have no comeback.

However, by selling in this manner the seller also acknowledges that because the vehicle is sold as "Spares or Repairs" he is not going to be offered market value for the vehicle.

So in actual fact both the seller and the buyer take a risk, the seller by not getting a reasonable price and the buyer by not having any guarantee.

The Seller is very open about his business model and actually is more than fair to the buyer by allowing them to test drive the vehicle after having agreed the auction selling price but before acceptance and payment for the vehicle.

By selling as "Spares or Repairs" he satisfies SoGA and as he has nowhere stated that the vehicle is unroadworthy it meets the RTA criteria in the same way as any other car for sale, in fact this seller actually offers to MOT and Road Tax vehicles if requested and you are prepared to pay for the privilege.

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I don't know whether this is legal or not but given how clearly the terms and conditions are stated and the prices the cars seem to sell for (well below normal dealer prices) it doesn't seem unfair. Given the SOGA is partially about reasonableness I'm not sure how any customer could take it to court and make it stand up?

If you buy a car dirt cheap, with declared faults AND a warning it should be considered as needing further repairs how can you expect normal after sales service?

 

There are loads of dodgy dealers around who charge full retail prices and then stick 'sold as seen, no warranty given or implied' on the bottom of the receipt in tiny letters - knowing full well half the cars they sell are knackered and they intend to tell the customer to f-off should anything go wrong.

 

The last car I bought I paid absolutely top whack for because it was coming from an apparently respectable dealer and in 'mint' condition....... needless to say I still got screwed over when it broke down 800 miles later. A least this dealer is totally upfront about the situation - if I had mechanical knowledge and/or a contingency fund I would consider it

 

I'm not sure how the unlimited test drive would work though - who is responsible for insuring that?

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They can't make it stand up. If you buy something on the basis that's it's for spares or repair then if it breaks into 2000 pieces on the way home you own every one of them.

 

 

But he ha excellent feedback, you can test drive the car all you want to, so it's the same as buying a car in the sold as seen bit at BCA excpeth that you can't even open the bonnet at BCA now!

 

 

I'd buy a car from them, but then I know what I'm looking at, if you don't know, take someone who does, or don't buy.

 

 

The insurance cover will be ok if he has demonstration cover, it's surprisingly affordable on a trade policy, and as long as the car has a current MOT then the insurance will cover them.

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Not wishing to prolong this thread to the point of it becoming the typical "point scoring" argument, but I think we will agree to disagree on this Bob.

 

While I would agree that it's refreshing to see a trader as open and frank as this, but its still dosn't change the simple fact that any trader can spout as many terms and policies as he likes... it dosn't mean to say that such terms can avoid the SOGA completely. You mention the term "sold as seen", well you should know that term made by a trader is about as use as a ash tray on a motor bike legally.

 

And I still am not convinced that you can advertise a car for sale as "spares or repair" (which means it's a non-runner) to a member of the public and then say it can be test driven. I think a judge would find that very contradictory as far as the description of the car was concerned. Personally I think this is the greatest grey area in this. AFAIK, if you sell a car as "spares or repair" to a member of the public, it cannot be driven away and as such, offering test drives surely means in fact the car is being sold for the purpose of what it is intended for.

 

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Sailor Sam, you are making an assumption ! "spares or repairs" (which means it's a non-runner)"........................................No it does not mean it's a non-runner, it means exactly as it states "for spares or repairs".........................that repair may only be a scratch requiring touch-up or a bulb replacing, or in some cases a new engine or clutch or whatever else.

No where is the trader stating that the vehicle is a non-runner or unroadworthy..........................Spares or repairs, means exactly that, it may or may not require substanstial work and therefore is sold as not to retail standard and thus cheaper than retail value.

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Sailor Sam, you are making an assumption ! "spares or repairs" (which means it's a non-runner)"........................................No it does not mean it's a non-runner, it means exactly as it states "for spares or repairs".........................that repair may only be a scratch requiring touch-up or a bulb replacing, or in some cases a new engine or clutch or whatever else.

No where is the trader stating that the vehicle is a non-runner or unroadworthy..........................Spares or repairs, means exactly that, it may or may not require substanstial work and therefore is sold as not to retail standard and thus cheaper than retail value.


Agree.
I could sell a car for spares even if roadworthy because of a fault which would be too expensive to repair but would not affect the safety of the car, i.e. slipping clutch, turbo charger not working.
Again, I don't think he's doing anything wrong and in fact he's being very honest in his description.
What I would say is: if you're not an expert mechanic don't buy, if you are then you could end up getting a bargain.
I remember a car dealer close by me who use to buy dozens of cars every week on auction and then sell them as for spares or parts.
I bought a very cheap 10 year old Peugeot from him and he lasted me 6 years without opening the bonnet.
I only wanted an old banger for 6 months at the time, but then I was lucky and I kept it until rust got the better of it.
I didn't even change or check the oil in the 6 years and when I scrapped it I drove it to the scrapyard.
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As I said, we will agree to disagree. IMO describing a car for sale as "spares or repair" is implying that it cannot be driven or is not "fit for the purpose" at the point of sale. To me the trader is simply using the term so he can avoid the SOGA coming back and biting him in the bum. This may be perfectly ok when selling to another trader but i'm not sure it is fully cosha selling to Joe Public this way.

 

Also, I still say that promoting test drives could be considered as saying the car in fact is drive-able and as such, must be fit for the purpose. Do we also know if the car is taxed, insured and has an MOT to enable it to be test driven?

 

Anyway, I am highly unlikely to purchase a car in this way so I think I am done here. :yo:

 

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Spares or repair does no imply it cannot be driven or is not fit for purpose at all Sam. I have same said scenario at the moment. Saxo has MOT, is insured but not taxed. Is worth more breaking it up than retailing it so the buyer buys and it's up to them what they do with the car. It drives well, will probably get another MOT but I could not vouch for it's future reliability. Sure someone might come along and decide to run it as a going concern, conversely they might want to break it. What they want to do with it is not my problem. That's what the dealer is doing and saying and warning. And I am selling to Joe Public.

 

Fortunately I'm not a trader but if I was that's the deal.

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