got a default CCJ/Interim 3rdd Party Debt Order against a company*** Resolved***

[Ganymede]

You can summons the witness to attend then they will have to.

[butterflygirl]

I want the set aside to fail, that's my hope.

 

Your comment re 'no property in a witness' was extremely helpful to me in understanding that whole area...just having a read up on that now. I do accept that the second company aren't *my* witness or anyone witness, but independent. My worry relates to intimidation and pressure on them beforehand by the defendant.. and what impact that may have on their willingness to say whatever at any point in the future..

 

If it goes to hearing/trial, yeah, bummer...have to be getting into all that sort of thing then..

 

Thanks Ganymede, better that I'm aware of these things prior to going into the set aside and having any hope of coming out with the CCJ still in place..

 

B

 

 

You can summons the witness to attend then they will have to.

[butterflygirl]

Very close to the set aside hearing now...

 

I've just realised that the defendant is saying the claim form was served on them on a sunday. I checked the actual date out to see what day that was. The wording of their witness statement (as previously posted) relies on this date both for the date of opening of the envelope, and referring to this as being the date it was served. As far as I'm aware, the courts send post regular post and not on a sunday? (Also, the office of the defendant is not open on a sunday). Have I found evidence on the witness statement of a blatant untruth? If so....what are the implications, if any? Implications for how the judge views the rest of their application to set aside?

 

Thanks,

 

B

[butterflygirl]

Scrap the last question re which days the court sends out forms. The Claim Form was sent to the defendant from their reg office, so it would have been sent first class post - point still being that it couldn't have arrived on a sunday anyway.

 

The defendant says:

 

4. 'We first received the Claim Form dated X October 2013 on 10th November 2013.' (this point then goes on about who opened it and what was in it...as per full text earlier in this thread).

 

5. I have been advised that when the particulars of claim were served on us on 10th November 2013, we should have also received.....' (full text earlier in the thread).

 

10 Nov is a sunday and their offices are closed on a sunday. 10th Nov looks *better* as a date for them (aside from the sunday thing) from a response perspective. Court stated on the Notice of Issue that service was deemed to be on 5th Nov. Given that 10th Nov is a sunday, no post, and office closed...does the fact that they've written this in their Witness Statement look in anyway *bad* on their part... Imo it's an attempt to manipulate dates for their own benefit but not sure whether the judge would be phased?

 

Thanks,

 

B

[butterflygirl]

The set aside was granted but the judge said their defence was very weak and said to them a couple of times 'this doesn't look good for you/that doesn't look good for you'. Judge accepted that service was sound. Money paid into court, they've been told to negotiate prior to a hearing scheduled for a few weeks time. Judge said I could have costs, they couldn't.

 

Hoping to get a result from negotiation and see an end to what has been a very long road.

 

Thanks,

 

B

[AndyOrch]

Sounds promising BFG...very surprised he allowed the Set a side though...still they have no defence so it may all be in vain.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[butterflygirl]

And you might have been correct Andy.. The order says that it's a temporary set aside until they get a signed defence in (their defence wasn't signed....no idea who wrote it up for them.....I think they're saying it was a solicitor.....looks to me like it was a legal secretary at best...). Yesterday my brain was broken - lack of sleep - so that detail of the set aside only being temporary)...flew past my head. They've been given a date to get a signed defence in. In the meantime, I've started the negotiations by email, have marginally reduced the total. Not heard back from them as yet....

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

 

Sounds promising BFG...very surprised he allowed the Set a side though...still they have no defence so it may all be in vain.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[butterflygirl]

The wording on the order, coming after the set aside hearing is:

 

It Is Ordered That:

 

1. By consent, the third party order made on Xth Month 2013 (which secures a sum of £XXXX.XX) remain in force pending the determination of this case;

 

2. Subject to the preceding paragraph, the judgment entered against the defendant in default on Xth Nov 2013, be set aside provided the defendant delivers to the court office by 4pm on Xth February 2014, a signed defence;

 

3. Enforcement of the judgment stand suspended until Xth (one day later than point 2.) February 2014.

 

 

 

I *think* it's a good thing that the money remain held. But I don't understand the significance of the judge asking for a signed defence... In the hearing, he did say the defence was extremely weak (and also unsigned). Presumably, they can't alter the defence at this stage...(?) I also have no clue what to do if they get a signed defence in. Will the court automatically schedule another hearing or do I need to *do* something....in order to facilitate that.... Totally stumped really..

 

Thanks,

 

B

[AndyOrch]

Any defence that is submitted to court manually (not MCOL) must contain a statement of truth otherwise its invalid but signed or unsigned it will still have to have merit otherwise it will be struck out.The Court will advise you.

 

Andy

[butterflygirl]

Thanks Andy.

 

The Order states that they had until 4pm today to file a signed defence. I called the court and nothing is showing as registered on the file. Is there another working day added in in these kind of situations, to ensure that they haven't dropped a defence into a dropbox....at say.....3.45pm today....or whatever time.....point being that it may have been dropped into the court today some time after todays post has been opened? I don't feel I can breathe a sigh of relief now until monday...if this is the case...

 

I had an email from them 3 days ago to say they WERE going to be filing a signed defence by the deadline....so seems more than a little odd..

 

Thanks,

 

B

[AndyOrch]

Well they are cutting it fine it they have..rather than sending you an email of it intention they should have served you a copy of the defence also...I think a little mind games is being played here...wait until Monday..then we can resurrect enforcement.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[butterflygirl]

Hi again Andy and forum.. Even confused now... The defendant got their defence filed on 17th Feb but I guess the judge accepted that they could have hand delivered it by his deadline on 14th. He has ordered that the defence stands and the defendant is to pay a counterclaim fee by x date. Is this fairly standard practice, in preparation for some sort of further hearing...? It's a pain in the rear as far as I'm concerned and very very stressful... But, given that this judgement was a default judgement, would he be pretty much obliged to let this thing go all the way?

 

Finally, is there any way he can get their counterclaim fee and just make a rash decision on this case??!....or is that a rare occurrence....

 

I'm failing to see how the defendant have any hope of coming out of this on top, but.....just *how* random are judges....I wonder!!

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

 

 

 

 

Well they are cutting it fine it they have..rather than sending you an email of it intention they should have served you a copy of the defence also...I think a little mind games is being played here...wait until Monday..then we can resurrect enforcement.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[mjt2013]

It all sounds fairly standard, the next stage I imagine will be allocation to track and directions for taking the case to the next hearing.

[AndyOrch]

Hi BFG

 

Yes its standard practice that fees must be paid on time..otherwise the court can impose sanction and strike out...keep your eye on that date.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[butterflygirl]

Hi Andy - just got the most recent Order through and the wording is:

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT

 

1. The Defence stands, pursuant to Order of Xth January 2014.

 

2. Unless the Counter Claim fee of £80 is paid by 4pm on 7th March 2014, the counter claim do stand struck out.

 

3. Emails regarding negotiations to be removed from the court file and returned.

 

 

 

The judge who made this order is a different judge. Original judge had been a judge for years, this judge only for a few years. Just getting concerned now that the effort at the set aside hearing with the original judge (explanations I gave) have been blown away with the wind... The original judge told both parties to negotiate, so the sending of the emails regarding that were *to* that end.. Being a lay person, with no knowledge of proper procedure, it's a little unsettling to be told in an order that they're not going on the file..

 

Would there be any benefit to me having a solicitor if and when this moves forward? I don't want the judge to think that I've hired one because my case isn't sound, but equally....I can't lose this case because of something procedural or technical...

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

 

 

Hi BFG

 

Yes its standard practice that fees must be paid on time..otherwise the court can impose sanction and strike out...keep your eye on that date.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

What's the basis of their counter claim ?

[butterflygirl]

I paid them £6000 instead of their original total of £7050, because I had to get someone else in to finish the work. At the time I paid them the £6000, the work wasn't completed and they're claiming it was. In effect, what's happened is that they'd had the bulk of the money and then didn't want to be bothered come back to finish off.

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

What's the basis of their counter claim ?

[mjt2013]

Negotiations are without prejudice so should be kept secret from the court before liability is decided. That's why they're to be removed from the file so as to ensure that the judge hearing the case doesn't accidentally read it.

[butterflygirl]

Thanks mjt.. As a litigant in person, I didn't know that. Hopefully I won't receive any sort of penalty (attitude wise) from the judge... I just thought I was doing what the original judge asked.. Why would the court clerk have put them on there in the first place though, I wonder.. Either way, what you've said makes complete sense.

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

 

Negotiations are without prejudice so should be kept secret from the court before liability is decided. That's why they're to be removed from the file so as to ensure that the judge hearing the case doesn't accidentally read it.

[mjt2013]

No problem, a lot of lawyers seem to not understand that particular point so I'm sure as a LiP you'll get no stick from a judge for it.

 

In fairness to the court staff they'll just stick things on the file, they're not legally trained so don't have the power to decide what does or doesn't need to be seen by the judge.

[butterflygirl]

Feel better knowing that sometimes lawyers also screw up in the same way as me re the emails...

 

I have another question (for anyone really):

 

Just looked some more into the one director of the company I have a claim against. Another company of his is currently in liquidation. It owes HMRC 50k (!!!) in tax and 50k (!!!) in VAT. He *tried* to dissolve the company before they could get him (I can see this from the papertrail from Companies House) but this action was stopped and the company was forced to go the proper route....rather than dodge responsibilities....albeit, I doubt HMRC will see a penny of their 100k....which is very annoying to those of us who pay tax as we're supposed to. My question is: is this behaviour (dodging such major responsibilities) relevant at all to my situation. Do I bring it to the attention of the Judge...as a sign of the character of the director of the company I'm claiming against.....or will I be annoying to the Judge if I do that...

 

As an aside, how do these people sleep at night?? If I owed £50 to HMRC I'd be stressed out until it was paid...

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

No problem, a lot of lawyers seem to not understand that particular point so I'm sure as a LiP you'll get no stick from a judge for it.

 

In fairness to the court staff they'll just stick things on the file, they're not legally trained so don't have the power to decide what does or doesn't need to be seen by the judge.

[mjt2013]

Don't start mud slinging and trying to discredit people's character, just stick to the issues.

[butterflygirl]

Thanks mjt, ever the voice of reason... At my age I shouldn't be shocked so easily at the way people do business.. I'll keep it all tucked under my hat if and when there's a hearing.

 

B

 

Don't start mud slinging and trying to discredit people's character, just stick to the issues.

[butterflygirl]

Phoned the court and they've said that a Directions Questionnaire has been sent out to me. Am I right in thinking that I can file a 'Rely to Defence' at the same time that I send this Questionnaire back? If so, is there any special format for the reply? I have zero legal knowledge.....so is a judge likely to be ok with something that I literally type up, with the names of the parties, case number, court etc..? I have to serve this on the Defendant too, from what I've read... Is there anything else that could potentially stop my reply to their defence from being accepted by the judge? And email evidence, can I attach a couple of email to it...in what format...as exhibits or are they ok literally just attached to the back, albeit....when I refer to them, I will make it clear..

 

This is SUCH a waste of time and energy.. The company didn't complete the flippin' job, I got someone else in to do that... simple as that. But on and on it goes...

 

Thanks,

 

B

[butterflygirl]

Hi again Forum - long running claim still running. There is a hearing set for the end of July. In the meantime....the Defendant did not send me a copy of their Directions Questionnaire so I asked the court for a copy of it. They ordered the Defendant to send it, which they now have.

 

My question is this - in section D1 where the form asks about the venue for the hearing, the Defendant has written:

 

"XXXXXXX as one of our witnesses is a prominent member of the XXXXX community and knows some judges".

 

 

I have phoned the court to tell them I am concerned about this D1 response. They told me to write in voicing my concerns.

 

Is it just me, or does what they wrote look 'odd'. Am I over-reacting by being somewhat perturbed...

 

Thanks,

 

B