parking Eye PCN - Lost POPLA appeal - what are my chances in court?

[Simit]

Guys,

 

I have just had my parking fine appeal refused by POPLA.

 

I believe I am in the right with this and was prepared to take it to the next level if Armtrac (the car park operator) wish to do so.

The questions I was looking to get some response to are:

 

1) “should I lose the case,

how much more expenses than the £100 fine could there be

e.g. with legal costs etc of Armtrac, cost of hearing etc???

 

In a similar vein if I win the case can I claim against Armtrac?

I am retired but work just a few days a year as a consultant for which my fees are substantial

– if successful II would seek to claim on this basis (and donate to a pet/animal charity).

 

2) What would be my chances of winning based on the information below

 

I picked up the parking fine in March at Sennen Beach Cafe (sadly while waiting for a dog to be cremated),

 

I had bought a parking ticket but Armtrac say that it was “not clearly displayed”.

 

I used the car park in order to have a coffee at the Sennen Beach Cafe who own the car park and have contacted the owner

- but he is not going to help.

 

This is was the basis of the appeal sent to POPLA:

 

 

Grounds for Appeal

 

 

1) The Information Required was Clearly Visible.

The requirements given by Armtrac (see Document 1 attached to EMAIL) are that

“For a pay and display ticket to be valid it must be displayed face up clearly showing the date and expiry time on the dashboard of the vehicle”.

 

The photograph provided by the patrol officer of a ticket displayed has been taken at an angle from which this information is obscured.

When placed in the same position on the dashboard the required information is clearly visible from an elevated perspective

i.e. normal head height (see photographs in Document 2) which show the two perspectives.

 

The Reconstruction of photographs were witnessed (see EMAIL Witness Statements 1)

 

2) Incorrect times.

There are serious inconsistencies with the Parking Charge Ticket issued and the photographs sent by Armtrac and included in Document

1. The Parking Charge Ticket was issued at 13.09 (see Document 3).

 

At this time I had only just arrived in the car park and was queuing at the machine to obtain my parking ticket (which was issued at 13.12).

 

The person in front of me* was having some problems operating the machine and it probably took about five minutes or more to get my ticket and return to the car.

 

It appears that the time settings on the camera used by the operative were incorrect (14.10 - 14.11)

– one photograph even shows the passenger door window wide open which is not something that I would do when leaving the car unattended (as I then did) to visit the restaurant and later walk on the beach.

 

*- Lesley B who kindly gave me her ticket when leaving the car park as evidence.

 

I arrived in the car park at the same time as she did and she has agreed to act as a witness (see EMAIL Witness Statements 2)

 

 

Any thoughts gratefully received!

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

What on earth are you worrying about? It is highly unlikely they will go to court as they will have to justify their 'fine' I assume this is a private car park and not a council ticket as you went to POPLA. They are run by the same people who issue the tickets and pretending they are impartial.

 

No matter what POPLA say, you can just ignore them and only respond IF they actually issue court papers.

[Simit]

Many Thanks silverfox!!!! Ill wait and see what they do (if anything) next.

 

Dave

[Conniff]

if successful II would seek to claim on this basis (and donate to a pet/animal charity).

 

What, no donation to the Consumer Action Group ?

 

Read up what has been published in the press and on here about breach of contract. That will wipe out all and any payment above their actual losses.

[Surfer01]

You paid for a ticket to park there and if they were unable to read it that is there tough luck.

Hopefully you still have the ticket.

 

Either way they will look a bit foolish going to court as by saying "failure to display" does not mean you did not buy a ticket.

 

Don't lose any sleep over this one and continue to ignore unless they want a hiding and send court papers which is unlikely.

[Crocdoc]

This has little or no chance of ever going to court ,

if any loss occurred it could only be the cost of the hourly charge rate plus the cost of issuing the invoice.

 

These companies frequently argue that their charges are based on the upper limit of £100 .00 as stated by the British Parking Association.

 

However, who are the BPA to set charges, they are nothing more than a representative body of the Private Parking Industry.

 

Furthermore, they HAVE NEVER provided detail of how this figure was calculated or why they deem it to be a genuine pre estimate of loss.

 

What the Department of Transport states is as follows.

.

Department for Transport .

 

Charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken.

 

For example, to cover the unpaid charges and the administrative costs associated with issuing the ticket to recover the charges.

Charges may not be set at higher levels than necessary to recover business losses and the intention should not be to penalise the driver.

 

The OFT statement on this point.

.

Charges for breaking a parking contract must be reasonable and a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

This means charges must compensate the landholder only for the loss they are likely to suffer because the parking contract has been broken.

 

For example, to cover the unpaid charges and the administrative costs associated with issuing the ticket to recover the charges.

Charges may not be set at higher levels than necessary to recover business losses and the intention should not be to penalise the driver.

 

RELAX

[dx100uk]

and its NOT A FINE!!

 

nowhere do they use that word

 

if they do, they are in trouble

[SURFBOY]

You paid for a ticket for the time you were in the car park, so there is no loss to the car park owner.

In my opinion they will not be going anywhere near court.

If you have not sent your POPLA appeal yet then have a read around this and other forums to get an idea of what to put in the appeal.

Its not a FINE so do not worry!

[tomtubby]

You may wish to read the following post that I made this afternoon on another thread.

 

This was a successful POPLA appeal .

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?396864-The-importance-of-using-POPLA........(15-Viewing)-nbsp

[Simit]

Thanks for all the responses and info.

 

I have just received a letter from Armtrac following the appeal - the last paragraph reads.

 

"We therefore request the balance of £100 to be paid by 23rd July 2013 or collection will be passsed to Debt Recovery Plus or the County Courts for collection."

 

Anyone know who/what "Debt Recovery Plus" is ? It sounds intimidating.

 

Cheers!

[SURFBOY]

it is not!

Debt recovery plus are just a toothless debt collection company. they will send you a series of letters, some will even have red ink writing and CAPITAL letters in them !

[Simit]

Sorry forgot to add to previous post above - can "Debt Recovery Plus" act in any way at all with me to get the £100 BEFORE a court hearing?

 

Dave

[dx100uk]

nope they are not bailiffs

just powerless DCA.

 

there are sev threads here already on this DRP dca stuff

who was the parking charge from?

[Scouse Magic]

Sorry forgot to add to previous post above - can "Debt Recovery Plus" act in any way at all with me to get the £100 BEFORE a court hearing?

Dave

 

 

Hello Simit...

Im sorry these hyenas of society are hounding you for money that you are not liable for.

Croc doc provides sound advice on here...

.Only if you go to court and lose and refuse to pay a judgement,

can the claimant apply for a warrant of execution for a COURT Baliff to recover the sum owed..

 

..All a debt collectors can do is try to telephone you 3 or 4 times a day asking for your long card number

or send you threatening looking letters containing useless information..

 

..You could refuse to correspond with them, or speak to them on the phone about your all time favourite 100 records as they are paying for the call...

....I doubt very much this will ever see court,

 

I dont suspect either that they have a close up photograph of the dshboard !!

 

Keep us all informed,

and keep your ticket and a record of all your costs defending this matter just incase,

eg postage, stationary, travel, any telephone calls and loss of earnings (Max £90 daily)

[lamma]

You paid to park (I hope you still have the ticket that proves this).

There was no injury and they suffered no loss.

This this is clearly obnoxious as a penalty.

 

I would tackle this from two angles,

the same two aspects of any valid claim namely violation of a legal right and injury.

 

Firstly what evidence is their of the legal right that has been violated

(and is that legal right theirs or someone else's)

and what is the measure and quantum of damage (the injury).

 

I am surprised that this was not won at POPLA.

 

It would be informative to see the arguments used by both sides at POPLA and the text the decision.

 

Of course you should redact personal information from the text.

[Surfer01]

Is the onus on you or the PPC to prove whether a person did not buy a ticket, i.e. you bought a ticket however you have now lost it?

[lamma]

If you were arguing that you had paid then naturally it would be best to able to evidence it !

 

As it is civil a 'huge pile' of paid tickets may help if you did not have the one in question.

The bench may accept that as "51%".

But in Small Claims who knows ?

 

Better to have the ticket

- or bank statement if paid by card/phone.

 

keep (cash) parking tickets for a long time for this reason. The ticket is not the be all and end all. Violation of a legal right and damages. Even if you cannot prove the parking was paid for is the amount being asked for appropriate to the purported injury ?

 

Is it the PPC's legal right or the landowner's ?

 

Who is the purported "innocent party".

 

Is the PPC mere agent ? etc. etc.

Edited July 15, 2013 by lamma

[Simit]

Much appreciate all the advice guys - I have the ticket that I bought and other evidence cited in my first posting. These people are very intimidating and threatening - without your help and support I could have just buckled and paid - I can see the whole thing more clearly now. Ill post any further developments.

 

Big thanks!

[Scouse Magic]

Hi there, the fact you have your ticket proves that the land owner ( not the ppc) suffered no loss of revenue.

Amazed POPLA refused your appeal.

The small claims court consists of one Deputy District Judge and is very informal as the intent is to resolve disputes between two parties.

 

The onus is on the Claimant to prove their case, not the other way around this includes a close up photo of the dashboard,

assuming it is the actual land owner that brings proceedings against you,

not the PPC in which case the PPC has no right to do so in their name unless they have a contract which states they can which you are entitled to see and I very much doubt they have one.

 

If you think this advice has been helpful please give me positive feedback.

[remey]

Need advice

 

back in June 2017 apparently parking charge notice was sent to my old address and received via re-direction around late July 2017.

 

I called Parking Eye and advised this tickets wasn't for us as we were both at work

plus don't know where this hotel is and if I did we wouldn't go there for any reason plus we don't go to the area in question.

Correspondence went back and forth to Parking Eye as we aren't going to pay for something that we didn't do.

 

Its on Private Land apparently as I called the Hotel and the Manager stated he has trouble with Parking Eye with his own clients staying there and he provided the landlord whom reside in the USA and another country which I forget.

 

I did email the landlord but not reply

asked if Parking Eye were their designated collector of monies and issuing tickets.

 

Also quoted to Parking Eye and POPLA a piece found on internet that although husband registered keeper at the time we owned the car he or myself was not the driver so we cannot be liable and we don't know who apparently was the driver as we are the only two insured on the car.

 

They sent photo evidence and you couldn't see who was in the parked vehicle but defo wasn't either of us.

 

I have appealed to POPLA who clearly didn't read the appeal properly.

I did state we sold car in July as we believe again our number plates been cloned again.

 

Who can we appeal to higher than POPLA as we are not going to pay these cowboys and advised them we can prove both at work at the time.

[renegadeimp]

can you create your own thread please. Youve replied to one thats been dead for 4 years

[dx100uk]

Start a new thread

[dx100uk]

no-one you ignore them.

 

unless you get a letter of claim

or

a claimform

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

also,

they will have sent you pictures of the car taken via their ANPR system.

 

Does this even look like your car?

 

Should they continue with this then they will have to prove it is your vehicle and since you will be able to prove you weren't there at the time and nor was the car then they will lose.

 

Your post is not the easiest to understand and that wont have helped you at POPLA but no damage done either.

 

Before you do write to anyone else please post up what you want to say so people can advise on what phrases to use, laws and protocols followed etc.