Letter threat of BK - old ltd company debt - claim form received - help

[mryummy]

Can I ask what kind of accountants this firm were? Are they Licensed Insolvency Practitioners? Rather naughty to be offering those kind of services if they arent.

 

As an accountant myself, I have seen some unscrupulous firms try it on with directors when they know their fees arent going to be covered. In my opinion however it would be highly unusual for any accountant to undertake £4500 of work for an insolvent company without any guarantee of getting paid.

 

Ive seen many a director agree to pay fees personally because they simply wouldn't get the service otherwise. Ive also seen people try to wriggle out of guarantees once the work is completed (no offence intended to you).

 

Might I also suggest that you ask for detailed time costing records in respect of the invoices. They should at least be able to tell you who worked on your case, for how long and at what hourly rate.

 

Hi, they are chartered and chartered certified accountants, according to their website. They are not licensed insolvency practitioners. The advice this firm gave me when i told them what was happening to the company, was that as there was no assets, just debts, then there was noting to liquidate so it would be a waste of money ( i had been quoted £2000 from a local insolvency practitioner) and they could do the same job for "about £500".

 

What they did was write to a list of people, a standard letter, that told them the company had ceased trading with no assets and that an application would be submitted to companies house for the company to be struck off. I had to provide them a list of people who were creditors, with address, which I did. As far as I am aware, all they did was send a templated letter to each one informing them of this. The company has still not been struck off at companies house.

 

They were fully aware of my personal and business financial circumstances, and that i didnt have a job or savings etc to pay them. I had lost all my personal money in the business (£60K), which is why they suggested that they could save me money by doing this through them.

 

I just cannot believe that having given an "about £500" price, the bill could come to £4500! I can understand a 10-20% contingency, but not 800%

[mryummy]

Your submission date is 6th July isn't it ?

 

You will need to contact the opposition to get that package sent out again.

 

Yes its the 6th.

 

Im on with it, i have requested again today.

 

I am also reporting these to the OFT and the ICAEW (the accountancy regulator)

[DonkeyB]

Depending on timescales, you need to beware of Companies House prosecuting you for failing to file accounts! They would write to you at your business and home address. What is on file at Companies House?

[mryummy]

Hi There

 

It just says "active proposal to strike off"

[mryummy]

Guys

 

On another note, myself and my new partner instructed this accountancy firm to set up our working tax credits and child tax credits, as my partner has 2 young children and had just started a ltd company. This was on May 29th 2012 and they did all paperwork etc for it. Anyway, they messed the paperwork up and it never got submitted, we had chased them every month until October, when they said it may be "quicker" if we did it ourselves. we finally spoke with the relevant HMRC department who told us they had no application at all from anyone on our behalf and we had to start a new claim in December, meaning that we had missed out on 7 months of entitled monies (£900 per month x 7). We have all the e mail correspondence to back all this up too and from.

 

So, in a nut shell, we are looking to recoup this from the accountancy firm as we believe they failed in their duties to undertake this for us, meaning we suffered a large financial loss.

 

Can anyone point us in the right direction of how we start this. Would we request an SAR from them so we had all the paperwork (signed instruction etc) and their paperwork from their end. We then plan to write to them requesting full payment, or pusue through the court system

 

Any help much appreciated

[mryummy]

Hi Guys

 

I still havent received the SAR information from the claimant. I have spoken to them every day for a week now.

 

What can I do ref the court? Can I request an extention?

[steampowered]

You should write to them reminding them of the deadline.

 

If they still do not comply, the soft option is to complain to the ICO - http://www.ico.org.uk/for_the_public/personal_information. The hard option is to bring legal proceedings for non-compliance with the SAR, but this opens a can of worms and should be approached with great care ... see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?386041-Wandered-into-court-costs-minefield for a cautionary tale.

 

The issues you raise in post 55 raise an allegation of professional negligence. There may be a claim here but this should be treated separately to the issue of the invoice, and a letter before action issued if you want to pursue it. The rules regarding how you should approach a potential professional negligence claim are set out at http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/protocol/prot_neg.

[mryummy]

thanks steam powered, most helpfull.

 

so, looking at this protocol, when i send the "letter before action" do I have to allow them 3 months to respond before I start the court claim?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

No more than 14 days, to respond to each point that must be answered to your satisfaction so as to stop the court action.

[steampowered]

Under the Professional Negligence protocol, you are generally supposed to allow 21 days for a response and 3 months to investigate. These are general guidelines not hard-and-fast rules, if it is a simple matter then allowing less time to investigate is appropriate. In the LBA I would just ask for a response in 21 days and see what they say.

 

You can start a court claim right away if you really want to. If you haven't followed the protocol it doesn't affect the substance of the claim but does increase the risk you will be ordered to pay costs if you lose.

[mryummy]

Thanks Guys, will proceed with this today.

 

On the initial note, still no paperwork received and have to send my defence today so will have to make teh court aware that I havent received the requested information and defend myself on the basis of the facts available to me

[citizenB]

Oops, sorry I asked a question that you had already answered

[mryummy]

Thanks guys

 

I will be starting this process today.

 

Just another question ref this: Can I claim the associated costs I have incurred by the lack of this money. E.G missed credit card payments, interest accrued, council tax debt and court costs?

 

Also, back to my original point, still no paperwork pack from the claimant despite me calling them twice daily since last tuesday, so I will have to submit my defence witrh the facts I have at my disposal now!

[steampowered]

Just another question ref this: Can I claim the associated costs I have incurred by the lack of this money. E.G missed credit card payments, interest accrued, council tax debt and court costs?

You can certainly try. Whether you will get them is another matter ... there are problems regarding whether this kind of stuff is too 'remote' to be claimed but that is a debate for another day.

Also, back to my original point, still no paperwork pack from the claimant despite me calling them twice daily since last tuesday, so I will have to submit my defence witrh the facts I have at my disposal now!

 

Yup. This is very common. Make sure you include the full range of grounds for denying liability ... including that services were provided to the company not you personally, that no personal guarantee was given, agreed to an estimate of 500 only, they are put to proof as to the amount claimed ... and anything else relevant.

[mryummy]

Just had snotty short e mail saying that as they have tried once to deliver the requested information then this is sufficient and that the court will see their evidence and accept this.

 

They have also kindly reminded me of the defence time.

 

So, I have sent an SAR and a CPR 31.4 request and havent heard anything back from them, over 40 days now.

[DonkeyB]

Maybe you should offer to collect it.

[mryummy]

Ive got to get defence in by tomorrow and they are 50 miles away, also the small matter of im at work!

 

I have responded to the court with a part admission, sent copies of all correspondence that i have sent and received and also the information of times of when i have written and called to further request.

 

Thats all I can do. I have also raised a grievance with the industry regulator and started my process of professional negligence and my claim against them

 

I find the best way to fight fire, is with a much bigger fire

[DonkeyB]

Sadly, the professional bodies often (and deliberately, IMO) take two or three years to conduct investigations and complaints. They protect each others’ interests. Even if your complaint is upheld, it’s rare for more than a rap on the knuckles to be the outcome.

[DonkeyB]

The problem with a part admission is that they WILL therefore get judgment, and they will use this against any complaint as justification for their actions.

[mryummy]

I guessed that, but at least it will be a nuisance value for them.

 

On another issue (see comment 55) i have today issued the letter before action in relation to my claim against them, which came about because of this and my investigations into it.

 

I have treated this as a totally seperate claim and is with my partner.

 

Legal advice i have received points to a very strong claim

[steampowered]

Regarding the missing documents - CPR 31.15 states as follows in relation to documents disclosed under 31.14: "the party who disclosed the document must supply him with a copy not more than 7 days after the date on which he received the request."

 

It is plain that attempting to deliver them is not enough. The Claimant's obligation is to 'supply' the documents to the Defendant. You could politely invite them once again to comply with their obligations under CPR 31.14 to supply the document, stating that if they fail to comply with their obligations you will draw the court's attention to this, and if necessary will issue an application notice for a court order that the documents are disclosed and will seek costs arising from that application.

 

Or you could let it go as you should get general disclosure of the documents they intend to rely on soon enough anyway.

[mryummy]

Regarding the missing documents - CPR 31.15 states as follows in relation to documents disclosed under 31.14: "the party who disclosed the document must supply him with a copy not more than 7 days after the date on which he received the request."

 

It is plain that attempting to deliver them is not enough. The Claimant's obligation is to 'supply' the documents to the Defendant. You could politely invite them once again to comply with their obligations under CPR 31.14 to supply the document, stating that if they fail to comply with their obligations you will draw the court's attention to this, and if necessary will issue an application notice for a court order that the documents are disclosed and will seek costs arising from that application.

 

Or you could let it go as you should get general disclosure of the documents they intend to rely on soon enough anyway.

 

Done

Defence filed

Claim for professional negligence submitted

[steampowered]

Good stuff. Fingers crossed for you.

[mryummy]

Paperwork arrived on Saturday, post marked posted Thursday with deadline for submission of defence friday!

 

Anyway, signs of a guarantee, although with 3 directors signatures, not just mine and was also the same letter that we signed for that firm to act on behalf of the company.

 

I have spoken with the other 2 directors who signed this and they confirmed that they understood this to be just a letter of engagement, not guarantee. Also, the two other directors havent had any communication from them, no demands or anything.

 

I have felt all along this has been a personal vendetta, this confirms it. Is their anything that can be highlighted to the court reference this and the fact they are demanding from me and not the other 2 directors? We will all be contesting this alleged guarantee in any case.

 

Also, had this snotty e mail below from them, just showing what these people are like. this came from the senior partner:

 

"We have engagement letters, your written acceptance of the debt due (see attached) and a Personal Guarantee from you. The court should have no difficulty in discerning that your recent communications are nothing but a dishonest attempt to avoid the debt".

 

"We will take very measure necessary to ensure that you do not succeed."

 

Clearly they are riled in some way and this is clearly personal. Not exactly a professional attitude to have!

[DonkeyB]

What exactly is the wording re the guarantee?