help with bailiffs

[Swizz75]

so should i keep making payments to bailiff through payment plan or direct to council

[marmaris30]

I'll be back in a bit as I've just got to do something else. I'm sure there are others more knowledgeable than me around in the meantime!

[stevep]

The other option is to challenge the validity of the levy (currently in the process of doing this myself).

 

Firstly, grab a copy of the Notice of Seizure and Walking Possession agreement. Check it against this

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2050/schedule/2/made (scroll down to form 7)

 

If the name of the bailiff isn't printed, if the names of all directors are not listed, if the phone number is not included, if all fees are not itemised etc etc, a letter to the magistrate who issued your liability order can get the Notice of Seizure thrown out as an "irregular levy"

 

Further reading of this and the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (as amended) Section 45 (available on the same site) will, as the others who have responded have already said, lead you to identify that there are other reasons for it being irregular too - like the amount levied not covering the amount of the debt by a long way (indicating that the levy was carried out simply to increase the charges applied by the bailiffs).

 

Finally, bailiffs are required by local authorities to sign up to a code of conduct which includes not forcing debtors into payment schedules which they are obviously unable to adhere to. If they insist on doing this, a formal complaint to the council should get any further action put on hold

[ploddertom]

I appreciate you have told us what he seized, however can you list it eaxactly as described on the Notice of Seizure he left you with, reason being there may be some inconsistencies with what he has seized.

[ploddertom]

Did you sign a Walking Possession Agreement?

[Queens_king]

For god's sake, take the advice given. The senior peeps on here certainly know what they are doing

 

I have had dealings with the local CAB and the advice they give is rubbish, as though it has been pre prepared and reading from a crib card. From reading many threads on this site and one other site I note that this is the case with most CAB's although not all.

 

If you feel as though you have that much extra cash to give away send me it.

[Jamberson]

Bailiffs are not powerless and they can force entry subsequent to being let in the first time. It's not helpful to pretend that if someone ignores them they will go away.

 

It is a bottom line that if you can't/don't pay debts, bailiffs can take your posessions. They don't want to - they'd rather not have to cart away goods and auction them, but they can. Short of settling the debt, which may not be possible, I can't see that you can just ignore them.

 

If they do end up taking your posessions, which I hope they don't, then whatever they fetch will be deducted from the debt and the balance will remain. Try whatever you can to stall them or find loopholes, as suggested above. Propose a payment plan in writing - do what you can - but I do think it would be foolish to just assume that they will go away. The issue has to be resolved one way or another.

[old bill]

The only problem with that, Jamberson, is seizing goods of insufficient value to cover the debt. If that is the case, the bailiff should return the LO to the LA marked nulla bono.

[i hate bailiffs]

Bailiffs are not powerless and they can force entry subsequent to being let in the first time. It's not helpful to pretend that if someone ignores them they will go away.

 

It is a bottom line that if you can't/don't pay debts, bailiffs can take your posessions. They don't want to - they'd rather not have to cart away goods and auction them, but they can. Short of settling the debt, which may not be possible, I can't see that you can just ignore them.

 

If they do end up taking your posessions, which I hope they don't, then whatever they fetch will be deducted from the debt and the balance will remain. Try whatever you can to stall them or find loopholes, as suggested above. Propose a payment plan in writing - do what you can - but I do think it would be foolish to just assume that they will go away. The issue has to be resolved one way or another.

 

 

never have i said to ignore the situation forced entry can not take place at this point without a order from the court

 

and yes council tax bailiffs are powerless most of the time no levy in normal circumstances and nothing they can do in this case payments to council DIRECT

 

sounds like levy would not lump off the debt so they can not force entry as would been seen to line there pockets

 

the bottom line is it is not a crime to be behind with council tax as there are millions of liability orders that are issued each year

[brassnecked]

The only problem with that, Jamberson, is seizing goods of insufficient value to cover the debt. If that is the case, the bailiff should return the LO to the LA marked nulla bono.

 

Which is why it may be worthwhile challenging the levy whilst paying the council direct regularly to build up a payment record,and allow for lawful fees, where is it stated in law you are compelled to deal with a bailiff UNLESS he has had entry., a levy and obtained an order authorising entry on a particular date and time. and niotified the debtor in writing of the visit This levy may be merely to garner fees,and account should be returned nullo bono.

 

I would listen to ploddertom, and post up the items on the notice of seizure so Caggers can check for validity, generic listing, or exempt items that will allow the levy to be challenged

Edited August 28, 2012 by brassnecked

[wonkeydonkey]

Hi swiss 75 and welcome to cag.

 

It is always better to start at the baseline and work outward..............firstly you need to confirm the amount being charged to you for the LO is correct, you do this by contacting the Council and asking :

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

When you have the answers to the above come back here and let us all know...caggers can then see the bigger picture.You will see the figure given by the Council differ greatly to what the bailiff is expecting you to pay, that is because of his fees added to the bill so the next thing on the list is to send the following:To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

The levy you have would not appear to bring anything like the costs to removal,storage and auction cost let alone reduce the debt which is why. PT has asked you to list the goods levied upon exactly as written on the notice of seizure, that is for good reason as we can then ask further questions to identify which of those goods are permitted to be seized and it could be the levy will not hold water and was only made to get him a bit of extra beer money.

 

They will threaten and lie to you every time they open their mouths to take a breathe, arrest you, commit you to prison, put your grannie into care, have the kids adopted, levy the rabbit and sell to the butcher etc etc ..the reality is there is nothing in law to say you need to deal with the bailiff.

 

Follow what has been said and start to make payments direct to the Council...make sure you only set the payments at a rate you can manage and stick to making them at that amount on the same day/date every week/month,

 

Please try to stop worrying ..take a look around the forum and you will see you are not alone...the format to getting control of the debt works!!

WD

[brassnecked]

Do as WD and ploddertom suggest, you will then have control of the situation, not the bailiff, he is a powerless blustering bully with only threats to fall back on at that stage.

 

If he turns up film him with a mobile phone even to catch his threats and bluff. he will trip himself up on camera, he just won't be able to help himself dig a deep hole to fall in.

[sgtbush]

levy has been made, the goods no longer belong to you, they belong to the creditor, or law, or crown.

they can now return at any time after 7 days i think it is to remove goods to pay for the debt

it seems that they have not listed enough goods tho to satisfy the debt

but they can force entry to remove the goods and at any time night or day.

[i hate bailiffs]

levy has been made, the goods no longer belong to you, they belong to the creditor, or law, or crown.

they can now return at any time after 7 days i think it is to remove goods to pay for the debt

it seems that they have not listed enough goods tho to satisfy the debt

but they can force entry to remove the goods and at any time night or day.

 

i would be interested where you get your information from if it is a book i would ask for a refund either that or you are a troll

 

they can NOT return and force entry without a order from the court they do not have that

 

you have a good day:peace:

[sgtbush]

its all writtan on the form 7, notice of distress/walking posession forms

[i hate bailiffs]

its all writtan on the form 7, notice of distress/walking posession forms

 

OK TROLL if you say so

[sgtbush]

Seizing or ( levying) of goods.

Assuming that you have let the bailiff into your home, or that he has gained entry “peacefully”, he will then be legally entitled go into any room in your home,where he will be allowed to open any doors, cupboards or drawers that he likes. He will be looking to seize (or levy) on goods, or, to put it more simply, to reserve goods that can be left on the premises on the understanding by you that he can return at a further date and to use force if need be, to remove those goods for sale in the event that you do not pay the debt owed to include his fees.

Unlike many European countries where a bailiff may actually put a sticker or tag on the items that he has levied (seized), the bailiff will not mark the goods in any way.

As the bailiff would need to gain entry into your home before seizing goods, he would much prefer to seize a car on the road or driveway, and this is the most popular item for a bailiff to include on a Walking Possession.

 

Problems with signing a Walking Possession.

By signing a Walking Possession, you are agreeing that if you do not pay the amount owed and the bailiff fees by a certain time, that the bailiff has the right to return to your home, by forcing entry if need be, and to remove those items listed on the Walking Possession.

There is a daily charge for a Walking Possession that you must pay on top of the original debt you owe.

 

A bailiff may only seize goods that belong to the person who owes the money, although any goods in the house can be seized for distress for rent. In practice, bailiffs will attempt to seize any goods of value. It is important to note that the onus of proof is on you….not the bailiff to prove that items should not be taken. It is always a good idea to have receipts close to hand.

 

We have heard many reports of bailiffs posting a Walking Possession through the letterbox with the letter stating that he has levied or seized goods by looking through the window, and requesting that you sign the Walking Possession and return it to his office or else!!! ……. Do not be tricked by this. By visiting our Legal Cases area of our Downloads section you will see that we have provided details of a legal case concerning this, which can be quoted from if you are considering writing a letter of compliant.

The major problem with signing a Walking Possession is the additional ability it provides for the bailiff to charge further fees. This is because the bailiff has the right to return to your home if you default on any payment arrangement. For this reason, within just a day or so of either a payment being made late, or a cheque being returned as unpaid, many bailiffs will use this as an opportunity to visit you to say that you have broken the payment arrangement and threatening to remove your goods. This will result in additional van fees etc, with some bailiffs attempting to charge further fees as well to cover administration costs for a returned cheque or late payment and even for a “new payment arrangement”.

You do not have to agree to sign a Walking Possession and you can simply refuse to alow the bailiff entry into your home.

Instead you can write to the bailiff company to inform them that you are aware of your rights and that you will not allow the bailiff into your home but that you are willing to make a payment arrangement to pay the debt.

 

 

Securing of the goods (generally called impounding).

 

Having now seized the goods, the law requires that the bailiff must then secure them in some way; otherwise you can simply close the door after the bailiff has left and remove the goods to a friend or neighbors house etc. Years ago this was achieved by what is called Close Possession which is described in more detail under the heading on the left hand side of this page. Please note however that Close Possession is so rare that we have never yet come across this.

 

Just because a bailiff has walked around your home, made a list of goods that he has “seized”, this in it's self means very little. For the bailiff to have the right to return at a later date, break into the premises if need be, he must acquire some form of legal control over the goods. This is done by impounding. The legal term for this means that the items are now “in the custody of the law”.

 

The way that this is achieved, is by listing the relevant items that he has seized on a Walking Possession form, which you will both need to sign.

 

Contrary to belief, if you refuse to sign the Walking Possession…the bailiff can still insist that he has seized your goods….but this could be difficult to prove. If the bailiff wishes to charge a walking possession fee, there must be a signed agreement.

[sgtbush]

try looking at bailiffadviceonline.com

[wonkeydonkey]

Excellent site with A1 advice the writer is understandably providing the advice 'generally' and not suggesting every circumstance is the same and set in concrete....for it would be impossible to obtain a levy if there is nothing to levy upon would it not?

[old bill]

its all writtan on the form 7, notice of distress/walking posession forms

 

There are specific procedures governing the seizure of items by the Crown. Also, don't forget that bailiff companies operate an SOB system when having Form 7s printed.

[Jamberson]

Sgt Bush is correct. Bailiffs have claimed the property. You can't just wish it all away because you don't like it.

[brassnecked]

Sgt Bush is correct. Bailiffs have claimed the property. You can't just wish it all away because you don't like it.

But the debtor could challenge the levy, if it is for insufficient and mainly exempt goods, so regardless of whether the bailiff, the crown, owns or has control of them or the roc carries them to it's nest, if it is for council tax a Regulation 46 complaint can be entered in the magistrates court, with council as defendant, as they are addrieved by the levy. i mean what happened to the levy on a doormat? The LGO became very annoyed indeed with the bailiff..

 

Jamberson no one is denying the bailiff has seized goods, and technically you are correct, however there is nothing to stop options to challenge a levy being explored.

[Jamberson]

No, nothing to stop it being challenged. And nothing to prevent complaining either.

 

I think the fact that the goods are of insufficient value is irrelevant (someone earlier said the bailiff has to return the warrant nulla bona). It makes no difference. The goods can still be taken and used in part payment.

 

Facts, guys.

[brassnecked]

According to Northampton Council's website if a debtors goods are insufficient in value, well they should return LO nulla bona:

 

"If the bailiff believes that you have insufficient goods to clear the debt he will issue a "Nulla Bona" certificate to the council and return the case to the council."

From:http://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200201/business_rates/10/bailiffs_and_recovery

 

 

So yes it is acknowledged that nulla bona is an option, but obviously the bailiff won't want to do that now will he, so he will do as Jamberson says he will, remove that doormat he levied , and flog it for five bob, then go back and clean out the house sell the cat, and kids toys, take and sell (illegally) those sofas with no fire retardant labels and ignore potential vulnerability whilst possibly breaking every rule in the book.

 

So I consider nulla bona is a correct procedure, but as Jamberson rightly points out in the real world the bailiff will ignore this and go in for the kill, and then go back for more. which is when Caggers remedies and Formal Complaints begin to fly.

[Jamberson]

Say someone owes £1000. Say they have goods worth £800. The bailiff can remove the goods and sell them, and assuming the fetch £800 at auction, that leaves £200 owing.

 

Nulla Bona is an option when the debtor literally has nothing worth taking. There's no compulsion - it's a judgement the bailiff will make. But they see goods as assets, and if they have monetary value, they can take them (the usual conditions and restrictions on types of goods accepted).

 

It should also be remembered that the goods need only be to the value of the council's portion of the debt. The rest is the bailiff's own, and obviously they will take something rather than nothing.