Urgent Advice Please / 9 Year Old Council Tax Liability Order / BAILIFF!!

[Equilibruim]

Okay... Any advice gratefully received...

 

Out of the blue had a couple of chaps turn up at the door...

(Can give a name; paperwork says company is certificated but not sure how to check if he is certified. Others have had unpleasant experiences with him)

 

I thought it was regarding my recent dealings with British Gas and went outside (door locked behind me) to tell them to naff off as it was already being sorted and knew they had no right of entry!

 

Turns out they were not looking for me but my long term partner & his ex wife in regard to two council tax liability orders dating back to 2002 / 2003.

 

It is very possible they may not even be liable for one and may have moved during the period but have not yet clarified this for sure as I am struggling to get hold of the actual date period which the liability orders were issued for. (Got copies of both the orders from the council at the end of last week but only states date of issue not period covered)

 

Basically long story short; they wanted to come in to make a list of our goods for removal, the notice he left us with (as if we were not home/did not answer) said he was at our address with the intention of removing goods that day and would be back with police within 24hrs to remove the goods. (Is it right that they cannot takes good without the list of goods to levy and he did not in fact have any rights of entry unless gained peaceful entry on visit and therefore was making an illegal threat?)

 

We did not let them in; pleaded our case on the basis that we had been given no opportunity to repay the debt (He said a letter had been sent to our address but I can guarantee there has been no such letter!) and said that our child was home and we would not allow them while they are home. We (partner and I) under pressure agreed to payments, beyond our means, starting tomorrow 13/08/12 (they were not willing to accept a date later in the month) and I have been doing some research but would be really very grateful of any advice.. Some clarity! I know when it comes to Council Tax the rules can be different.

 

I have no formal breakdown of the debt/fees only what the guy wrote by hand alongside the two case numbers. Bailiff said maybe £200 in fees... I read they can only charge a modest fixed amount for 1st visit no matter how many cases in regard to or they are committing fee fraud?

 

The figures on the liability orders are not congruent (more) than the two case figures provided by bailiff.

 

Keeping all doors windows shut/locked as have been worried about other uninvited calls / in case he trys to get 'peaceful entry'.

 

Have looked in to a statutory declaration of ownership as obviously if I can protect the very few things we do have (mostly mine) then I will... Really I personally shouldn't be paying for this....

 

Not sure if we should deal with bailiffs? Send a letter with the first agreed payment as a goodwill gesture which they accept on the agreement to terms: that they provide us with a full breakdown of costs and repayment schedule? And future payments will be at x amount which is affordable to us? No more visits? Is there a letter that can be used to stop visits?

 

Or make a payment to council and tell the bailiff to see the council at the risk of more hassle from them as I read they cannot claim fees if they have not recovered funds?

 

Sorry I honestly tried to keep it short but somehow feel I have only scratched the surface and am a bit confused...!

 

Kind regards..

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

I've moved this thread to the appropriate Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[i hate bailiffs]

council tax bailiffs have little/no powers

 

Dont pay the bailiff

any payments should be direct to the council,contact council top get correct figures as you know nothing about it

they wont be able to re attend with the police it is one of there lies

 

if you have a car move it away to prevent a levy keep them out and they can do nothing

 

£200 in fees WOW that should be £24.50 first visit and £18.00 second visit

 

as they not looking for you it is not your debt

[Equilibruim]

Thank you Scott x

 

 

Hi i hate bailiffs - thank you for your time... i hate bailiffs too!

 

So you think don't make the payment to bailiff company tomorrow, instead call the council and see if I can get them to take the case back at a reasonable rate? And call off the bailiffs? Then tell the bailiff that I am dealing with the council directly and they should back off starting immediately?

 

What if the council refuse? If I make a payment to the council before speaking to them are they more likely to play ball - having received some payment? I know no-one can technically refuse a payment from me but apparently bailiffs get naffed off with councils who take back cases so I read often they take a no can do attitude?

 

We do have a little one... It is intimidating... I'd probably be more ballsy if I did not have her safety to consider... They can access where she used to happily play and our garden used to be a sanctuary... We will protect her eyes from this at all costs (rather than be scared witless) and now being the summer holidays and now they found the back door / garden / drive (they saw and asked about the car, it doesn't drive, they didnt mention anything about levy on it) we barely go out there with her... to say im twitchy since is an understatement... Will they accept me dealing with the council immediately or should I anticipate more trouble?

 

If they did get in for any reason and take goods is it not then my job to prove what is mine? I cant see him just taking my word for it.... We have shared a family home for many years...

 

Thanks again for you time and help... I know the bailiff preys on the un-informed and seems a balance between holding my nerve and gaining knowledge...

 

Im training at the moment for a career change and see clients on a voluntary basis at home... The last thing I want is regular door hammerings....

 

Look forward to hearing from you x

[Equilibruim]

Yes I thought I read about the £24.50 1st and £18.00 2nd visit.... If it goes back to council should I Pay the £24.50 for the 1st visit?

 

I have the figures as per the two L/O issues in 2002 / 2003... Do you think as the bailiffs have a significantly lesser figure the council may be willing to negotiate on the total?

 

After all I am not liable at all and partner and his ex questionably 50% each... I could probably sweeten the deal and with a little research probably provide a forwarding addess for the ex

 

Thanks again I hate bailiffs x

[i hate bailiffs]

you need to contact the council and find out some more info on the debt as bailiffs can bend the truth a little!!

 

find out how many liability orders you have what periods they cover

how much outstanding

 

council may say in the hands of the bailiffs and to deal with them if they do take there name and do a formal complaint as they cannot refuse payment

saying that once you know the amount you can pay it online

as this debt is around 9 years old it is a NON priority so will be on the bottom of the list as you have this bill to keep up with and living costs

 

why have the council taken so long to enforce it??

 

 

if the car does not drive if they levy against it they would be doing so to bump up there fees

[i hate bailiffs]

Yes I thought I read about the £24.50 1st and £18.00 2nd visit.... If it goes back to council should I Pay the £24.50 for the 1st visit?

 

I have the figures as per the two L/O issues in 2002 / 2003... Do you think as the bailiffs have a significantly lesser figure the council may be willing to negotiate on the total?

 

After all I am not liable at all and partner and his ex questionably 50% each... I could probably sweeten the deal and with a little research probably provide a forwarding addess for the ex

 

Thanks again I hate bailiffs x

 

i doubt council will negotiate at all there pension fund will suffer

 

i expect bailiff figure is well out to what is owed

I`m thinking contact council as there is a split liability bailiff action should stop/be put on hold until it can be resolved

may be worth contacting your local MP they tend to sort council explain the split liability and the issues with your kids ect

[Equilibruim]

Its two liability orders totalling £1250+.

The lady in recovery checked this for me when I asked for copies of them from the archive.

.. I have those with me now...

 

I assumed nothing had been paid on them.

. at least from our side..

will check tomorrow when I call her back to find out what period this covers...

 

There is no way we could pay all at once online but we are willing to negotiate a regular, reasonable payment..

. Likely a smaller one but we will pay loyally rather than a larger repayment that would be harder to keep...

 

No idea why the council have taken so long.

. we lived in and were registered to vote in their borough from 2007 - 2008 when we moved

and have been registered to vote in a neighbouring borough for the last 4 years,

same house an d they had the address!..

 

. Before 2007 partner was registered at various times and paying c/t at other properties in their borough

so he then / we now wouldn't have exactly been difficult to trace!

 

So to summerise

tomorrow I call and get the details I need and ask that they call off the dogs until dispute

re: the split liability be solved.

 

Even better if unlikely get them to agree a final settlement amount from ourselves (ideally 50% minimum reduction)

and stress we are a can't pay much rather than won't pay anything.

 

.. Do I ask them why it took them so long to chase the bill and why they didn't attempt to deal with us directly before taking such abrasive action..?

 

Explain our current circumstances,

child etc and hope they help?

Call the local MP's office...

 

Thank you for your time... it means a lot!

 

 

I feel like im playing with fire with these bailiffs.. Scary stuff.. Seems like i'll be fending off the burleys again yet... I imagine if he doesnt get his payment tomo i'll see him on Tues I hate jumping at noises and feeling trapped in my home... Worried about unorthodox practices... I have family round lots too, our home is a hub... Its not good for my health and i'd hate for them all to be caught up in it too...

[dx100uk]

old ctax bills appear not to be a priority debt and can be treated as you would any other debt.

 

leeched from someone's thread a while back..

.........................................................................

As this debt is for outstanding council tax from [old], it is no longer a priority debt as such and is now classified as "priority arrrears". So any bailiff can go swivel current LO or otherwise!!!!

.

I was in a similar situation but owing £1,200 for council tax from 6 yrs ago. (I was refused council tax benefit whilst I was unable to work through illness and on Income Support for 8 months but the council refused to apply CTB retrospectively - unknown to me because I had moved - my application for CTB had been incomplete.)

.

i refused to co-operate further with the bailiffs (Rossies) after their threat level had escalated to ridiculous heights and instead told the council how much I could afford to pay them after taking into consideration my priority household expenses and debts, then my priority debts and then my credit debt. (I worked out what I could afford with the National Debtline I&E form - I believe CAG has a good one as well) I would only correspond by e-mail to the Head of Revenues and I told him I would pay £12.50/month. I considered that to be a realistic and sustainable amount. It was accepted even though it will take 8 years to repay.

.

As suggested above, advise the council of your "vulnerable" status and dig your heels in! The council will eventually take back your debt and you can then repay them what is realistic and sustainable for you. Stress to them that it is in their benefit to help you by allowing you to repay at an amount you can afford - without defaulting - whilst still paying your current council liablility if you have one.

.

At the time I negotiated my repayment to the council, I was employed on a full-time basis and had no dependent children and was not considered vulnerable, so if I could do it, you can too!! If you're in receipt of the "appropriate" benefits, they will only deduct a small amount each week/month and then you will be fine.

.

Best of Luck and don't lose heart!

 

Impecunious!

....end of leeched msg.....

 

..........

 

you could phone and ask, but a bet they'll not 'take it back.

 

just pay them via your internet banking site

they cannot refuse that way.

 

dx

[ploddertom]

If the debt is for your OH before you got together and at that time they were with another partner then:

1 - they can only seize any goods belonging to your OH

2 - the debt is joint & several between your OH & ex partner meaning they can make either person pay in full or in part.

[Equilibruim]

old ctax bills appear not to be a priority debt and can be treated as you would any other debt.

 

leeched from someone's thread a while back..

.........................................................................

As this debt is for outstanding council tax from [old], it is no longer a priority debt as such and is now classified as "priority arrrears". So any bailiff can go swivel current LO or otherwise!!!!

.

I was in a similar situation but owing £1,200 for council tax from 6 yrs ago. (I was refused council tax benefit whilst I was unable to work through illness and on Income Support for 8 months but the council refused to apply CTB retrospectively - unknown to me because I had moved - my application for CTB had been incomplete.)

.

i refused to co-operate further with the bailiffs (Rossies) after their threat level had escalated to ridiculous heights and instead told the council how much I could afford to pay them after taking into consideration my priority household expenses and debts, then my priority debts and then my credit debt. (I worked out what I could afford with the National Debtline I&E form - I believe CAG has a good one as well) I would only correspond by e-mail to the Head of Revenues and I told him I would pay £12.50/month. I considered that to be a realistic and sustainable amount. It was accepted even though it will take 8 years to repay.

.

As suggested above, advise the council of your "vulnerable" status and dig your heels in! The council will eventually take back your debt and you can then repay them what is realistic and sustainable for you. Stress to them that it is in their benefit to help you by allowing you to repay at an amount you can afford - without defaulting - whilst still paying your current council liablility if you have one.

.

At the time I negotiated my repayment to the council, I was employed on a full-time basis and had no dependent children and was not considered vulnerable, so if I could do it, you can too!! If you're in receipt of the "appropriate" benefits, they will only deduct a small amount each week/month and then you will be fine.

.

Best of Luck and don't lose heart!

 

Impecunious!

....end of leeched msg.....

 

..........

 

you could phone and ask, but a bet they'll not 'take it back.

 

just pay them via your internet banking site

they cannot refuse that way.

 

dx

 

 

Thank you dx100uk I will endeavour to liaise with the council today... I hope they are willing to negotiate as I know without something I can solidly tell the bailiffs by the end of the day the temptation to pay them 1st installment just to keep them away will be great Fingers crosssed

[Equilibruim]

If the debt is for your OH before you got together and at that time they were with another partner then:

1 - they can only seize any goods belonging to your OH

2 - the debt is joint & several between your OH & ex partner meaning they can make either person pay in full or in part.

 

thanks ploddertom

 

1 - The guy is unlikely to take my word for it though if I said for instance (and assuming the guy gets access somehow) this is mine... this is mine? What is the best way to protect my things?

 

2 - Bailiff said this... Council can choose him... her or both... They have picked you! He said you have to take the ex to court for half once you have paid it

 

 

I am super nervous now... Ive had 3 horiffic nights' 'sleep' so far and the can feel the cracks! today is decision day pay them or expect more hassle from them :(

[ploddertom]

thanks ploddertom

 

1 - The guy is unlikely to take my word for it though if I said for instance (and assuming the guy gets access somehow) this is mine... this is mine? What is the best way to protect my things? Statutory Declaration whereby you lay claim to all your effects, cost £5/£10 at an solicitor - no appointment usually needed - you will need at least 3 notarised copies. Send 1 copy to the Bailiffs & keep others handy in case he turns up.

 

2 - Bailiff said this... Council can choose him... her or both... They have picked you! He said you have to take the ex to court for half once you have paid it - in theory he is correct, but it sounds as if they have already tried the other and not been able to trace their new address or found they have nothing of value.

 

 

I am super nervous now... Ive had 3 horiffic nights' 'sleep' so far and the can feel the cracks! today is decision day pay them or expect more hassle from them :(

 

There is no law that says you have to deal with or speak to a Bailiff. Providing he has not gained access to your your home or otherwise made a levy on goods outside then he is powerless. He may well threaten all sorts but I promise you it is all hot air. He Has no automatic right of entry, unless he has gained peaceful entry previously he cannot at any time force entry whether or not he says he will have a locksmith and/or Police.

 

As others have said your OH is better off paying the Council direct and this is better done on a weekly basis to give a payment history. You may have to allow for lawful fees however but as said no entry made or no levy made then this is restricted to £42-50 max no matter how many times he visits.

 

Bailiffs will lie, bully, cheat & intimidate and will hope you are going to pay the debts for your OH - I suppose because of Data Protection he shouldn't even be speaking to you. If he does call do not open the door but speak through the letterbox or upstairs window & where possible record any conversation. A Bailiff is allowed to enter via any closed but unlocked door or window so make sure your property is secure at all times even when putting the rubbish out.

[Equilibruim]

There is no law that says you have to deal with or speak to a Bailiff. Providing he has not gained access to your your home or otherwise made a levy on goods outside then he is powerless. He may well threaten all sorts but I promise you it is all hot air. He Has no automatic right of entry, unless he has gained peaceful entry previously he cannot at any time force entry whether or not he says he will have a locksmith and/or Police.

 

As others have said your OH is better off paying the Council direct and this is better done on a weekly basis to give a payment history. You may have to allow for lawful fees however but as said no entry made or no levy made then this is restricted to £42-50 max no matter how many times he visits.

 

Bailiffs will lie, bully, cheat & intimidate and will hope you are going to pay the debts for your OH - I suppose because of Data Protection he shouldn't even be speaking to you. If he does call do not open the door but speak through the letterbox or upstairs window & where possible record any conversation. A Bailiff is allowed to enter via any closed but unlocked door or window so make sure your property is secure at all times even when putting the rubbish out.

 

Its true: technically he shouldn't speak to me about it... OH was present though... We are a family and have been for many years so we are intertwined with our budget and finacially act in a family way, its all in together and any repayment would come from that...

 

It is the intimidation on the whole family which worries me... I dread being outside and feel imprisoned... I don't want them back here

 

Thanks Ploddertom... I'll post when I have had some joy (hopefully) with the council

[Equilibruim]

OK... spoke to council... they wont refuse payment but fear the agreement made with the bailiff will go into default and they will come around again.. She said I can write to the council to try to get them to take the case back but unlikely on my grounds as there are lots of families with children dealing with bailiffs and it wont be looked at today... She also recommended i make the first agreed payment to bailiff to give 1mth to look into it?

 

Spoke to Bailiff Co and they say that they too fear if no payment made they will send the bailiff round as cant update their system. Said we would inform the bailiff directly and give proof of payment so no further visits were necessary they said it doesnt work like that...

 

Fees: £299.20 on one account, she says the other account has no fees on it.

 

Apparently previous visits have been made to other properties in the past.. Council gave bailiff chase address as the address the liabilities are for even knowing he was not registered there anymore and was registered elsewhere in the borough! Bailiff co says £24.50 1st £18.00 2nd and then Levy fee (no levy ever made on goods) and Attendance fee (can they charge this? no list of goods to levy was ever made so why bring a van if they cannot legally take any goods?)

 

Help please I do not know what to do for the best

[i hate bailiffs]

OK... spoke to council... they wont refuse payment but fear the agreement made with the bailiff will go into default and they will come around again.. She said I can write to the council to try to get them to take the case back but unlikely on my grounds as there are lots of families with children dealing with bailiffs and it wont be looked at today... She also recommended i make the first agreed payment to bailiff to give 1mth to look into it?

 

Spoke to Bailiff Co and they say that they too fear if no payment made they will send the bailiff round as cant update their system. Said we would inform the bailiff directly and give proof of payment so no further visits were necessary they said it doesnt work like that...

 

Fees: £299.20 on one account, she says the other account has no fees on it.

 

Apparently previous visits have been made to other properties in the past.. Council gave bailiff chase address as the address the liabilities are for even knowing he was not registered there anymore and was registered elsewhere in the borough! Bailiff co says £24.50 1st £18.00 2nd and then Levy fee (no levy ever made on goods) and Attendance fee (can they charge this? no list of goods to levy was ever made so why bring a van if they cannot legally take any goods?)

 

Help please I do not know what to do for the best

 

this is just the reason payments Direct to council as bailiffs charge what they like

attendance fee with a van when gone to the wrong address

 

cant see how they can charge for previous visits to other property's they can charge a first and second visit fee

 

don't suppose you you have that 5 grand you owe me(no different to what bailiffs are claiming with no proof)

[Equilibruim]

this is just the reason payments Direct to council as bailiffs charge what they like

attendance fee with a van when gone to the wrong address

 

cant see how they can charge for previous visits to other property's they can charge a first and second visit fee

 

don't suppose you you have that 5 grand you owe me(no different to what bailiffs are claiming with no proof)

 

I wish I did! - So I am literally at crunch point.. If we pay bailiff do we then become liable for all his fees and have to deal with them in future? Lady at council said pay first payment to get them off our back then we have 1 month to take it up with the council?

 

No levy was ever made so not sure how they can charge attendance fee when no levy ever made, i have asked for breakdown of fees which they are sending by post.

 

Lady at bailiff firm says that even if we make payment to council and tell them today and prove payment today they will still send someone round and charge for the service.

 

How do I challenge these fees? How often are these challenges accepted? We didnt even have 14 day notice of the action, i guess it was sent to the old address they knew he wasnt living at? It is so ridiculous

 

This is ruining me

[ploddertom]

Typical response from both Bailiffs & Council. I can guarantee if you don't pay the Bailiff then he will call again. However they have their fees all wrong and you should send off for a breakdown of what they have charged to date. The levy they have you may treat as a joke - you could suggest they come and collect the items on it. If they have gone to other addresses when the Council have clearly known where your OH is then that is their problem.

 

I would still pay the Council direct, yes it upsets the Bailiff but so what. He'll eventually get sick of calling and go to pastures new although this will not happen overnight. Remember the golden rule

Bailiffs Lie

[ploddertom]

From:

My Name

My Address

To:

Acme bailiff Co

bailiff House

Ref: Account No: 123456

Dear Sir

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a Breakdown of the charges.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

I require this information within 14 days.

Yours faithfully

 

Adapt the above as you see fit and send initially by email backed up by a copy in the post. You still have time to catch todays post.

[Equilibruim]

From:

My Name

My Address

To:

Acme bailiff Co

bailiff House

Ref: Account No: 123456

Dear Sir

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a Breakdown of the charges.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

I require this information within 14 days.

Yours faithfully

 

Adapt the above as you see fit and send initially by email backed up by a copy in the post. You still have time to catch todays post.

 

Many thanks I will do this right away so they can include all info when they respond to my earlier request on the telephone....

[Equilibruim]

Ploddertom is there a letter I can send prohibiting visits to my home? Perhaps on the basis that I will start charging them per visit? If so ill get that off to them too?...

[ploddertom]

Unfortunately not. However there is nothing to stop you putting a sign up that says "No Bailiffs" and affix it to the entrances to your property (on or next to the gate). In effect this stops them calling and if they decide to ignore it - which they will - then you can do them for trespass. Lord Scarman remarked on this as something the the person listed mustobserve - believe it was part of his report into the Brixton riots.

[Equilibruim]

Unfortunately not. However there is nothing to stop you putting a sign up that says "No Bailiffs" and affix it to the entrances to your property (on or next to the gate). In effect this stops them calling and if they decide to ignore it - which they will - then you can do them for trespass. Lord Scarman remarked on this as something the the person listed mustobserve - believe it was part of his report into the Brixton riots.

 

Thats a shame

 

Debating what to do... Would like to pay council, propose terms of repayment alongside a string of reasons why they could have traced OH easily without such action and therefore case should never have gone this far; show the bailiffs the proof of payment and tell them to / hope to hell they back off - furthermore, I now believe that he wasnt even living at the address for one of the liability order periods so would gather evidence to present to the council to support this!

 

I could really use more time...

 

If i paid bailiff first payment it potentially gives me a quiet month to prepare a case and to get the council to take back the case due to complete negligence on their part...

 

Could receive bailiff breakdown and officially dispute charges...

 

Where would that leave me?

 

I feel I cannot handle regular visits it would interupt my life in so many ways... I have voluntary clients at home while I am re-training and potentially its reputation ruining if they happen to drop by then... in addition to how I actually feel inside knowing if we dont pay them we will have a visit tomo.. or the next day... or any other day...!

[ploddertom]

If youtry to agreement a payment plan with the Bailiff they will insist on doing a levy. If you then allow this they will find any excuse in the book to make you break the agreement thus incurring more costs.

[Equilibruim]

If youtry to agreement a payment plan with the Bailiff they will insist on doing a levy. If you then allow this they will find any excuse in the book to make you break the agreement thus incurring more costs.

 

I said no way to coming in / levy when he called before. He agreed a hefty sum (for us) each month

 

I'd prefer to deal with council.. but I have to protect my reputation and possible future... I think I have to pay bailiff the first payment and then launch a case against both the charged fees and the council... I cant risk that they keep on coming around..

 

I'm sorry folks...