sainsburys cca credit card 2002

[JackShepherd]

Hi, I may posted this before ( I have since changed my username as my old one was not anonymous enough!) .

 

My battle with Sainsburys has been ongoing for a few years now. I have not paid them for over 2 years. The debt is now with Cabot . They have sent a copy of the agreement they hold. I do not think it complies in regard to prescribed terms and have told various other dca's this over the last two years.

 

Should I just give in ? Am I fighting a losing battle? I just dont know what to respond with anymore.

 

I will try and display the cabot letter and the cca .If they don't show then please let me know. The cca is not a great copy but is just about legible on hard copy. It will be harder to see on here. There is no mention of a limit or a rate of interest. I have signed it and so have they .

[42man]

A bit small to read....have you tried photobucket.com (free)

[JackShepherd]

lol yes they are tiny ! sorry .

 

yes I think have a photobucket account still . I will do it now .

[JackShepherd]

It wont let me pot the link to photobucket as my post count is too low.

[JackShepherd]

if i do this a couple of times then my 'post' count will be up to 10 .

[JackShepherd]

[JackShepherd]

The cca has the right to cancel and both party's signatures but no interest rate or credit limit. Is there anything else its supposed to have?

 

I should be able to post link in my next reply.

[JackShepherd]

http://s1078.photobucket.com/albums/w481/penelope-pittstop/

[Duffers Mum]

oh now that looks almost identical to mine, except mine doesn't have Bank of Scotland at the top...I too have been farmed out to Cabot they have added lots of interest and the balance on mine is now almost £1500 more than when they took it over. They gave me a reconstructed copy too before sending what they say is the actual agreement. I can't say whether yours is compliant as I can't with mine..many on this site who looked at mine originally (when Sainsbury's provided it) said it did not comply, but others now say that it does. Have they sent you T&C's from when the account was opened, because it would be interesting to see if they are the same as the ones i've received.

 

*waves* at guests...shouldn't they be phoning up some poor unsuspecting people and threatening them?

[JackShepherd]

Hi Duffers Mum ,

 

I will have a look tomorrow for the t+c's that were sent to me. I think there were some different ones sent from different dca's though.

 

I am a bit upset that this may be enforceable. I was thinking about sending a letter saying that it doesn't contain the prescribed terms but a) I couldn't find a template for one and b) I am not sure now if ,like you say, things have changed over this last year in regard to these agreements.

[Duffers Mum]

I think if these things go to court it just depends on what judge you get...i'm thinking that as Sainsburys never took it to court and they had plenty of opportunity they possibly know its not enforceable..i also have a couple of really dodgy Default Notices but again, these don't seem to be worth much these days...

 

Good luck..hopefully somebody will come along shortly and be able to give you more info on enforceability etc.

[JackShepherd]

http://s1078.photobucket.com/albums/w481/penelope-pittstop/

 

 

hi again,

Aside from that document I posted yesterday that claims to be a cca I have also been sent these 3 sets of cca/t+c's over the last couple of years. Each set is more than one page long so for the purpose of this post I have just photocopied the top sheet of each.

 

The Interest details vary throughout but the most notable thing for me is that the two issued by cabot have conflicting addresses on them . One contains the correct address for the time (2002) and the other has an address that I didn't live at until much later (2006) . That therefore must be one that was thrown together more recently and cannot be an original .

 

None of these 3 documents end in a signature by myself or them . The signatures are on the single sheet document that I posted yesterday.

[42man]

What you should also check is that the interest rates match up to those on the documents reading about Kotecha vs Phoenix might enlighten you a bit more too....

[JackShepherd]

The actual cca says 'bank of scotland credit card' at the top. All the t+c's state 'sainsburys credit card' a the top. I know sainsburys bank was/is part of Bank of Scotland but shouldn't my t+c's (if they are the ones from the same time) say 'bank of scotland' too ? Or can they send anything regardless if it matches what an original would say?

[JackShepherd]

ok thanks, I had a quick read of that just now.

 

Two of the three documents sent to me have matching interest rates. The third document has different amounts (higher) . ALso, the tariff charges on this one are all £12 rather than £10 /£20 depending on the 'crime' eg late payment. I think this is a much newer version as the set £12 charge came later ( I could be wrong) . Of the two that have interest rates that match ,one of these has the wrong address and can't possible be genuine as I didn't move until much later.

 

I am going to have a look now to see if I have any other documents that have been sent to me over the years claiming to be the real thing.

[alangee]

As your account is pre 2006, if you signed a piece of paper that did not have any of the prescribed terms on it, it falls foul of sec61(1) and sec 127(3) of CCA1974, and in that case the court is precluded from finding against you.

 

61. (1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed

manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner,

and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms,

and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in

such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section

61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether

or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1))

itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or

hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

I know that some will disagree with me, but if the case is presented correctly, you should not lose.

 

Anyway that may never happen, just ask them to point out where the prescribed term are on the document you signed.

 

Alan

[JackShepherd]

Thank you Alan. Shall I just write a short ,to the point letter asking that or is there a template I should use? Whatever I do they come back spouting jargon and cases that show that they have done everything they need to do ! They drive me mad.

[alangee]

No just ask them the one question. If you make the request too long they just skirt around the issue. Mind you, they will probably do that anyway.

 

If they still avoid the question or say it says it is governed by CCA1974, then look at the CPUTR 2008 thread, and send them a letter asking the question "Have you got an agreement that would satisfy s61(1) and 127(3) of CCA1974". I kept getting the brush off from Tesco until they finally said that I did not sign their "agreement" - it was reconstituted although they would not admit it - but I signed the Credit Card and that is enough, so that is another unenforceable agreement.

 

Alan

[Duffers Mum]

As your account is pre 2006, if you signed a piece of paper that did not have any of the prescribed terms on it, it falls foul of sec61(1) and sec 127(3) of CCA1974, and in that case the court is precluded from finding against you.

 

61. (1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed

manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner,

and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms,

and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in

such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section

61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether

or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1))

itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or

hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

I know that some will disagree with me, but if the case is presented correctly, you should not lose.

 

Anyway that may never happen, just ask them to point out where the prescribed term are on the document you signed.

 

Alan

 

Alan - so am I right in thinking that just the one piece of paper as in Jack's post above (what they say is an agreement but which looks like an application form and which is almost identical to what I have received) which has been signed by the creditor and the debtor is not sufficient because the T&C's are on seperate sheets with no signature at the end? I want to make sure when I contact Cabot again that I get it right!

 

Jack, you are not alone in being driven mad by this bunch of idiots...i'll keep you posted with any updates on my situation and am subbing to this thread so I can see where you are too!

 

DM

[JackShepherd]

Thanks Alan,I will get that posted to them Monday morning then and will update here with their response.

 

Duffers Mum, thats good news if yours is the same . We are in this together!

[alangee]

DM

 

For pre 2006 applications to also serve as agreements, they have to contain the prescribed terms. They should be on your signature page, but may be printed on the reverse, so long as it says something like "sign only if you agree with the terms & conditions overleaf". The T&C's are not signed unless they form part of the agreement - by that I mean that they and the agreement are treated as one document, perhaps by page numbers, or physically joined to the agreement.

 

If your "agreement" is the same as Jacks, then I would advise you to send them the same letter. One thing I should have mentioned to Jack is to mark the letter ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE.

 

What you have is what you have said it looks like - an application.

 

Alan

[Duffers Mum]

Alan, thanks for that..i've just checked my "agreement" again and it is slightly different from Jacks..it states "this is a credit agreement regulated by the CCA1974, sign it only if you want to be legally bound by the terms" nothing about "terms and conditions overleaf" I don't want to hijack Jack's thread but would appreciate your thoughts? If you prefer

 

My thread is here:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?262556-Sainsburys-Bank-now-assigned-to-Cabot

 

Thanks DM

[alangee]

DM

 

Almost all applications state that, but as an ordinary debtor you are not extected to know CCA1974, that is why as a minimum the creditor, pre 2006, must put the prescribed terms on a document that he classes as an agreement. Unless he can show that that was only one page from, let us say a two page document the second of which contained the prescribed terms, then he falls foul of CCA1974 sec61(1) and 127(3), as I laid out in post #16.

 

As it stands, if your "agreement" does not show those prescribed terms then it is not a compliant agreement.

 

Alan

[Duffers Mum]

DM

 

Almost all applications state that, but as an ordinary debtor you are not extected to know CCA1974, that is why as a minimum the creditor, pre 2006, must put the prescribed terms on a document that he classes as an agreement. Unless he can show that that was only one page from, let us say a two page document the second of which contained the prescribed terms, then he falls foul of CCA1974 sec61(1) and 127(3), as I laid out in post #16.

 

As it stands, if your "agreement" does not show those prescribed terms then it is not a compliant agreement.

 

Alan

 

Thank you Alan...i will bear all this in mind when I respond to the next letter I receive from Cabot

[JackShepherd]

Hello all,

I got a response from Cabot . I asked them to point out where the prescribed terms are on my 'credit agreement ' (see photos) .

They have responded stating the prescribed terms have been provided to me in t+c's pages. They say that I should review my reconstituted copy and have enclosed two differing sets of t+c's again. They have used hilighter pen all over the pages to point out the details I should be looking for.

It's strange that they sent two sets. Each has a different address at the top , so one of them is definitely not real. Also, the interest rates differ on the two sets.

It's very back and forth ,they are adamanet I should pay them ! I am not sure what to say next. .