Wriggling out of paying credit card debts

[Frog Escalator]

Hello,

 

I'm just trying to work out the distinctions between what is and what is not considered wriggling out of paying credit card debts.

 

I've read that sending CCA requests to creditors and stopping payment on the basis of unenforceability is considered using paperwork to wriggle out of paying a debt.

 

Then I've read from the same sources that if you request a credit reference report and if a debt that you are paying is NOT listed on that report, then you should stop paying.

 

I'm confused by the distinction between these two. If both of the above are for debts/credit cards that you KNOW you took out at some point in the past, why is the first considered using paperwork to wriggle out of paying (i.e. it's considered debt avoidance) whereas the second is not considered debt avoidance (despite it also using paperwork to wriggle out of paying a debt that you know you took out).

 

Many thanks for any help anyone can give in explaining the moral distinctions here.

 

F.E.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi, The days of relying on ''faulty paperwork''

to claim unenforceability are over in most cases

now, and the only prohibition on DCAs/Creditors

pursuing the debt is that while no CCA is available

the debt cannot br enforced in court, the letters

and other communications use to pursue for

payment can still continue.

Recent case law also allows for creditors to produce

compliant reconstitutions of agreements.

Reliance on the use of CRA files is again often

misleading, default dates and Statute Barring dates

are not the same,the fact that there is no entry

on a CRA file does not necessarily mean the debt

does not exists, as defaults fall off the file in 6 years

PAID OR NOT, but a debtor may have been making

minimum payments throughout the six years or part

of the six years, so the default is removed BUT the

debt is still lve and not SB, and not showing on CRA files.

It is also worth remembering that A DEBTOR MUST INFORM

A CREDITOR IN WRITTING THAT A DEBT IS STATUTE BARRED

AND THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PAYING, many people have

been caught by this and when pressed by a DCA after the

SB date made a payment and restarted tyhe clock.

[cerberusalert]

Just to clarify, once a debt becomes SB nothing can unbar it. Even if a payment or even a written acknowledgement has been made afterwards, enforcement cannot be made through a court. Morally a debt may still exist, legally it's unenforceable.

 

If someone has made payments after it becomes SB unfortunately it is deemed as 'a gift' and cannot be reclaimed.

[rebel11]

Hi Frog

 

Have a read of 5 and 6 in my signature.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Just to clarify, once a debt becomes SB nothing can unbar it. Even if a payment or even a written acknowledgement has been made afterwards enforcement cannot be made through a court. Morally a debt may still exist, legally it's unenforceable.

 

If someone has made payments after it becomes SB unfortunately it is deemed as 'a gift' and cannot be reclaimed.

 

Unlike Scotland where when a debt becomes statute barred is is extinguished,

in England the debt still exists,with only the bar on court enforcement.

The OFT Guidance States only that ''it considers it unfair to press for payment

of a statute barred debt once the debtor has informed the creditor that they

will not be paying due to it being SB.

[Frog Escalator]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

 

Just wondering whether it would be considered wriggling out of paying the debt if:

 

1. You send CCA requests and stop payment

 

2. Get CCA request replies back from creditors/DCAs

 

3. Keep writing back to the creditor or each new DCA that is assigned and claim unenforceability

 

(3. In the meantime save or put a significant chunk aside of the money that you now have instead of paying each month into the bottomless pit of payment to creditors/DMP)

 

3a. For the unenforceable ones, keep doing the DCA letter CCA request ping-pong until the six years are up

 

3b. For the enforceable ones do the same as in 3a, but when they're really starting to threaten legal action for real (rather than empty threats), use the money saved to offer full and finals

 

This is something I'm having to seriously consider myself now after having paid thousands into a DMP to see a minuscule 7% of it having gone towards paying the debt (while living like a particularly impoverished church mouse in the meantime). I find it difficult to muster a sense of moral obligation to repay the banks when 93% of what I've paid over two years has gone on interest and late payment charges. It may be a case of avoidance wriggling (=morally bad?) for six years, and then it ceases being avoidance wriggling once the debts become statute barred (=morally not bad?) ...

 

Edited January 8, 2012 by Frog Escalator
grammar

[firstship]

All of your ideas for avoidance (not that we agree with the concept) are sound apart from ,should you be taken to court before you reach SB then a Recon Agreement ,T&Cs proof you have used the money and proof you have made payments will put you on loosing side in the vast majority of cases.

 

Also have a read of PriorityOnes thread regarding CUPTR

 

FS

[Frog Escalator]

Thanks for the response, and I'm not sure who you exactly mean by "we", but do you agree with the concept of paying a DMP (with CCCS) where the creditors refuse to stop or reduce interest, and where they keep adding absurd interest making repayment of the debt impossible, despite genuine attempts and efforts and considerable financial hardship in doing so?

 

I don't see what alternative I have. Keep paying a DMP (with two years' history of consistent regular monthly payment) where 93% goes on charges and interest that the creditors continue to refuse to stop charging?

[PriorityOne]

Personally, I wouldn't pay a DMP anything; free or otherwise. They don't do anything you can't do on your own and the benefit of having a self-mamanged DMP is that you know where you are with it at all times. DMP companies also don't check whether an account is unenforceable or not either..... so you could be paying for years on a duff account.... like a friend of mine was doing until I saw them off for her.

 

You need to check the enforceability of each account by making a CCA request to whichever DCA is currently chasing you for payment. As for morality, it shouldn't come into it. An account is either enforceable or it isn't and if a company has cack paperwork, then the ball is in your court to arrange a F&F on your terms, if that's the way you want to go.

 

There is still plenty of case law to defend your corner should you find yourself in court, although most people don't want to go to court and a lot don't. The key is to respond to all correspondence and not to ignore things.

 

[Frog Escalator]

As for morality, it shouldn't come into it. An account is either enforceable or it isn't

 

Many thanks PriorityOne!

 

Yours is the first reply that has addressed the crux of my initial posting. The word "wriggle" seems to suggest slyness and wrongdoing, yet the morality and uprightness of one's obligation to pay or continue paying seems to magically disappear after six years. It is the moralistic-ness in the seeming distinction between the two that I have difficulty reconciling.

[PriorityOne]

Many thanks PriorityOne!

 

Yours is the first reply that has addressed the crux of my initial posting.

 

Hmmm..... I'm probably the first to tell you not to check your credit files as well....

[firstship]

I have read your comments regarding CCCS and without doubt you have very unfortunate results ,caused by no help with frozen interest from 2 major banks,It looks like the banks are being less than cooperative of late with 0% interest.

 

It would be a good idea to run your own DMP which allows you to pay the 0% creditors and fight those who are unhelpful and only pay 0 to £1 per month until they sell to a DCA.

 

Have you recovered or are in the process of claiming back Credit Card/Loan charges etc

 

FS

[Frog Escalator]

IHave you recovered or are in the process of claiming back Credit Card/Loan charges etc

 

Thanks.

 

Despite having read the "claim back charges" pages, I'm still not clear on what I could reclaim. All charges and interest from the date the DMP started? That in itself would be amazing. I'm thinking though of saying sod the lot of them and just stopping payment. Although if I could get a chunk of interest and charges back at this stage before the Statute Barred clock has been ticking very long, it might be nice. Although maybe it's more effort than it's worth and I should just concentrate on keeping track of the correspondence they start bombarding me with once they stop receiving any money ...

[PriorityOne]

Thanks.

 

Despite having read the "claim back charges" pages, I'm still not clear on what I could reclaim. All charges and interest from the date the DMP started? That in itself would be amazing. I'm thinking though of saying sod the lot of them and just stopping payment. Although if I could get a chunk of interest and charges back at this stage before the Statute Barred clock has been ticking very long, it might be nice. Although maybe it's more effort than it's worth and I should just concentrate on keeping track of the correspondence they start bombarding me with once they stop receiving any money ...

 

You need to be careful here. By re-claiming, you would be acknowledging the debt and although it makes no difference in terms of SB status... as none of them are even close.... it does if you decide to cease payments due to unenforceable paperwork and they decide to get sh*tty with you.

 

You really need to start your journey with a CCA request to each DCA and go from there.

 

[Frog Escalator]

You need to be careful here. By re-claiming, you would be acknowledging the debt and although it makes no difference in terms of SB status... as none of them are even close.... it does if you decide to cease payments due to unenforceable paperwork and they decide to get sh*tty with you.

 

I thought something like that might be the case ..! Reclaiming charges might be worth doing if a CCA is seen to be enforceable and they start realistic threats of litigation ...

 

You really need to start your journey with a CCA request to each DCA and go from there.

 

Have done! Still awaiting replies but very early yet. After having done a few months of research and learning from others' experiences I'm actually feeling quite excited and that weight has started to be lifted. **** the banks!

[PriorityOne]

Excellent stuff..... well done

[Geordie911]

Unlike Scotland where when a debt becomes statute barred is is extinguished,

in England the debt still exists,with only the bar on court enforcement.

The OFT Guidance States only that ''it considers it unfair to press for payment

of a statute barred debt once the debtor has informed the creditor that they

will not be paying due to it being SB.

 

 

Can I just clarify BRIGADIER2JCSS I now live in Scotland but all of my debt was taken out when I lived in England which SB would be used Scotland or England ?

[Fred Bassett]

Thanks for the response, and I'm not sure who you exactly mean by "we", but do you agree with the concept of paying a DMP (with CCCS) where the creditors refuse to stop or reduce interest, and where they keep adding absurd interest making repayment of the debt impossible, despite genuine attempts and efforts and considerable financial hardship in doing so?

 

I don't see what alternative I have. Keep paying a DMP (with two years' history of consistent regular monthly payment) where 93% goes on charges and interest that the creditors continue to refuse to stop charging?

 

If that is what is happening then: a) CCCS are not doing their job properly and b) there is no point in using them.

 

Under these circumstances I would issue a CCA for each account where the creditor has not stopped adding interest and then see where this takes me. If the account is pre 2007 and they can't produce a valid CCA, I would stop paying them and use the money instead to pay those that have been more reasonable. This is just a personal view and might be controversial to some. Clearly, you've tried your best in difficult circumstances but nobody, not even the CCCS, has given you any support whatsoever.

 

The big drawback with this approach is that you will have to extricate yourself from your DMP. I say big drawback, but it appears in this case that the CCCS have been utterly useless.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Frog Escalator]

The big drawback with this approach is that you will have to extricate yourself from your DMP. I say big drawback, but it appears in this case that the CCCS have been utterly useless.

 

Indeed. In nearly two years I've paid £6,000 into the DMP and according to creditors' statements, the total debt has gone down by £416.

 

Complete *@#.

 

"We" (see above)/aka CAG (presumably) might not agree with the concept (although how all however many thousand users of this forum can be of one mind and opinion, I can't quite fathom), but I am stopping paying this debt, so I suppose that makes me a wriggler*. After two years of playing by CCCS rules (and living as lavish a lifestyle as a Victorian street urchin), the whole parasitic financial "industry" can eff orf. "Industry". Ha!

 

* I seem to remember a pleasant but equally impossible game for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K with the same name circa 1985.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Can I just clarify BRIGADIER2JCSS I now live in Scotland but all of my debt was taken out when I lived in England which SB would be used Scotland or England ?

Your contracts would be under English Law.

[Geordie911]

Your contracts would be under English Law.

 

Thanks for the clarification cheers..

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Thanks for the clarification cheers..

We have a query on this, as you now live in Scotland it has

been suggested that there may be a ''residential'' benefit

if you have lived in Scotland more than 3 years in the Scottish

law may apply after tis time I suggest that you check with a Scottish

lawyer on this.

[Geordie911]

Thanks again been here two yrs so will hang on then do as you mentioned

[dx100uk]

[caro]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

 

Just wondering whether it would be considered wriggling out of paying the debt if:

1. You send CCA requests and stop payment

 

2. Get CCA request replies back from creditors/DCAs

 

3. Keep writing back to the creditor or each new DCA that is assigned and claim unenforceability

 

(3. In the meantime save or put a significant chunk aside of the money that you now have instead of paying each month into the bottomless pit of payment to creditors/DMP)

 

3a. For the unenforceable ones, keep doing the DCA letter CCA request ping-pong until the six years are up

 

3b. For the enforceable ones do the same as in 3a, but when they're really starting to threaten legal action for real (rather than empty threats), use the money saved to offer full and finals

This is something I'm having to seriously consider myself now after having paid thousands into a DMP to see a minuscule 7% of it having gone towards paying the debt (while living like a particularly impoverished church mouse in the meantime). I find it difficult to muster a sense of moral obligation to repay the banks when 93% of what I've paid over two years has gone on interest and late payment charges. It may be a case of avoidance wriggling (=morally bad?) for six years, and then it ceases being avoidance wriggling once the debts become statute barred (=morally not bad?) ...

 

 

If you've been paying into a DMP I don't think anyone can call this debt avoidance, and it sounds, like most people, you don't mind paying what you owe. When the debt is being compounded with charges and excessive interest rates that's another matter.

 

It's not easy to get debts declared unenforceable though so it's not an easy option and you need to make sure you understand the challenges ahead.