Disciplinary hearing decision and sick leave - does it suspend the appeal?

[froginlondon]

Hello

 

my company is to issue their disciplinary hearing decision in writting while i am not there (monday). The decision is very likely dismissal. I will have 5 days to appeal.

 

Since I am on sick leave while the decision is given, does this suspend the decision issue and the appeal? The latter is most important: if sick, and unfit to review my case, do they have to wait for me to return to work and give me another 5 days to consider the appeal? Or do I have to still take the 5 days while sick to make my decision, re: appeal?

 

This is for Monday 31st Oct, so fairly urgent! many thks

[papasmurf1cx]

Hi Welcome to the site.

 

How long have you been sick and what with?

[froginlondon]

Hi

 

tks for the reply. I started feeling unwell on Fri, due to the stress and emotional toll. My employer is to issue the decision on Monday, regardless i am there or not. They will give me 5 days to appeal. But since I am sick and unable to work, does this suspends the appeal process until I resume normal work?

 

tks

[papasmurf1cx]

Doubt it. If it was a long term illness and one which the Equality Act applied then reasonable adjustments could have been asked for. But in your circumstances I would have thought they would plough on regardless.

 

I would write to them and ask that the 5 days start from when you receive the letter or email. Employers will want to be seen to be fair, despite the fact that they are not fair, the appearance of fairness is what they want so they have something to hang their reputation on. So it would mean nothing to them to extend it by a day or so.

[froginlondon]

ok, could I write to them and ask them to wait for my return from illness to start the appeal from there? If so, i could therefore extend my employment by 5 days (the sick leave). I could justify this on fairness and the grounds that i am unfit to be able to carry the work associated with the appeal, due to my work related stress and injuries?

 

tough one, i know. My employer has been manufacturing my exit, so i have no remorse bending the rules and playing street smart.... Shame, i know...

 

tk you

[papasmurf1cx]

What do you mean "manufacturing your exit" ?

 

Do you want to say a bit more on what the actual problem is?

[froginlondon]

hey

 

it's a long story.... But my employer has been using a variety of petty facts, feedback, notes, timings, etc to be able to twist thgs to their favour and manufacture the fact i was performing under performance. I went thru a 3 months process which happened to be biased and unfair. I tried to agree on a compromise agreement but they gave me nothing better than what i would get if dismissed. Since then, I have played against the clock and tried to grab as many paid days as possible... Even solicitors arent sure how to qualify my exit as unfair dismissal, so it's too expensive to fight on- even on a no win no fee basis.

 

All in all, i would like to grab those 5 extra days, pretending i am sick and therefore suspending the appeal until i resume work.

 

If that doesnt work, I will appeal and the process will start from scratch again- giving me more stress, more wasted time, but more money....

 

crazy!

[papasmurf1cx]

Are you sure the terminology "pretend" is right.... surely the process is stressful and causing anxiety so pretense would not be necessary?

[froginlondon]

well- it is stressful, and facing dismissal isnt fun. Especially when I have a mortgage with my ex partner and that she is threatening me with legal proceedings to force the sale!

 

Hence the reason is it is all over the place at the moment, and having the chance to delay things is helpful as it gives me time and money to fight on all fronts.

 

I am not sure i understand your point, though. So what are you suggesting, re: sick leave and appeal suspension?

 

Tk you

[papasmurf1cx]

Perhaps reading this will give you an understanding of what I meant by misuse of the word 'pretend' http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents !!!!!!!!!

 

Has your ex put equity into the property? Have you heard of SARB... sale and rent back schemes?

[Feebee_71]

I would say that, as you are off sick, they should notify you in writing of their decision (in fact they should in any case as it's good practice!) I woukd also say that, even though they are reaching their decision on Monday, they should send you written notification of the outcome and the 5 days should run from when you receive written confirmation - 2 days from posting letter if sent 1st class (and, IMHO, they should send by registered/signed for post).

 

Feebee_71

[froginlondon]

Ok, i see your point, though i am afraid the website is tad complex to navigate! So... back to the question, does the sickness postpone the appeal?

 

I will look into SARB- thank you a lot

 

cheers

[froginlondon]

@ feesbee - yes they have said to issue their decision in writing. Upon reception of the letter, can my sickness put the appeal on hold, until I resume normal employment and fitness?

 

tk you

[papasmurf1cx]

In my opinion No, although others may disagree. To be honest, if dealing with a big company these things tend to drag on if problems are thrown at them.

[Feebee_71]

No, I doubt being off sick will stop the 5 days appeal time frame however, it may well be that, having received your appeal they may not carry out any further meetings while your on sick leave but that's not guaranteed.

 

Feebee_71

[froginlondon]

Ok - i see. It wasnt my initial intention to appeal, on the basis that I have beyond enough of the cloack and dagger situation. I was hoping to hold the process on for 5 days, and not appeal. This would have given me enough time / benefits to carry on with the situation.

 

However, if they were to no hold the process on until I resume employment, then i may have to appeal. In which case, we are talking about another 2 wks or so...Minimum!

 

this has been dragging on since end of Aug....

 

Crazy!

[froginlondon]

@papasmurf agree, i work for a very large multinationals, and I have thrown lots of problems at them. Albeit all relative to employment law...

 

Lets see... Worth trying!

 

Anyone with opnions?

[Feebee_71]

The other thing to consider,

 

If they do dismiss you your entitlement to salary and benefits will stop from that date.

 

If you appeal against the dismissal they won't automatically start paying or continue paying you. You would have to wait for the conclusion of the appeal process and will only receive payment for the time of the appeal process if they re-instate you.

 

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear,

 

Feebee_71

[froginlondon]

hello

 

thank you- i had not considered that they may stop payment right by the time they issue their decision. Given I have 5 days to appeal, i'll be surprised if they do stop, indeed. However that is something to consider.

 

what they are goiing to issue is a warning for under performance. This will push me to dismissal, having received final written warning already.

 

From the company's guidelines, I have the right to appeal, in which case a new hearing will take place.

 

To be noted, I was systematically invited to the hearings on Fridays. I had the chance to postpone at times, but i really think my company wants my employment to terminate on a friday!!! For example, I was very pressured to attend the hearing last friday, and they had used all sort of power words for me to comply. Sadly, i couldnt do it as i advised the day before.

 

All in all they are ****ed off... and they want me out... on a friday... with minimal damages and costs to them.

 

I'll be surprised if my entitlement to salary and benefits will stop right by their decision but i will investigate. Many thanks for the pointer.

 

cheers

 

frog

[papasmurf1cx]

Are there any issues regarding disability or discrimination?

 

Also, you have obviously taken some legal advice which may or may not help you. Many lawyers hedge there advice and look at things in a black and white way, so the advice you have been given from your side may on the flip of a coin also be problematic for the employer.

 

If you 'feel' that they have been unfair then there may be a case to consider at an Employment Tribunal. You have already tried a compromise agreement but the employer didn't have anything to lose by offering you nothing. If you issued an ET1 against them they then HAVE to reply to the court. They would normally have solicitors do this for you. Once you get to that stage ....they have something to lose ie the compensation package + their own solicitor costs, which could be considerable. Employers are normally advised by solicitors as to the CHEAPEST way out of a problem.... that is when you compromise not when they have nothing to lose.

[froginlondon]

hello papa

 

tks for the reply, as always

 

No disability or discrimination. Albeit i am from French origins...

 

I will research the ET1, that is not something brought to my knowledge. However they had nothing to lose on the compromise agreement and therefore used their legal team internally, to basically offer the same compensation as in dismissal. They even refused to support the cost of my legal fees while dealing with the compromise agreement.

 

The thing with the tribunal is that: 1. it may cost me lots of money? 2. there is no garantees the tribunal will turn onto my favour 3. they clearly have manufactured my exit over a long period of time (6 months +) however this is hard to prove with B&W facts. Solicitors have seen clear thru my employer's game, however they have been reluctant to help me, given the sheer number of hours needed and the money upfront.

 

All in all, i am left with postponing my dismissal time and again, using the law and a variety of tricks..... A bit of a shame, but hey, i have to support my living and my employer is very very very rich. Robin Hoods anyone??

 

tks

[stu007]

Hi froginlondon

 

Could you just confirm that this was actually a Disciplinary Hearing and was the decision made at that meeting and what the decision was?

 

1. If the decison was made at the meeting and you were informed you should also at that time have been told your rights to appeal and the procedure. Also it is good practice to send you that decision in writing with the reasons for dismissal.

 

2. If the hearing was held but no decision was reached but they were taking further advice/or still considering the decision at that time they should have informed you as good practice and that they will let you know of there decision by xx date. (If this has happen as good practice once the decison has been reached the appeal 5 days cannot start until they have actually inform you of the decision them the countdown starts and as good practice they should also send you this in writing).

[papasmurf1cx]

Did they take a dislike to you being French? Race Discrimination?

 

ET1 is the form you fill in at an Employment Tribunal to summarise what your claim is. The employer has to respond on a form ET3. Then the fun starts.

 

1. It could cost you a lot of money, or nothing if you do it yourself. Many on here will talk you through procedural steps. If your claim is vexatious you could be lumbered with costs... and of course there is the appeal process which could also cost.

 

2. Tribunals can be fickle .... but compromise agreements are normally negotiated at the doors of the court.... cheaper for the employer.

 

3. Evidence being hard to prove does not mean that you cannot actually prove it. My wife and I had enough evidence that took 2,500 pages in the bundles and 3 weeks to go through at a trial... but they negotiated on day 1 and the trial did not proceed.

 

Can't you merely get another job, or is it in the Financial services and difficult at the moment?

[CONCILLIATOR]

Froginlondon:

 

You say that you are expecting the ‘disciplinary hearing decision’ in writing on Monday. Are we to take it that you actually attended the disciplinary hearing itself in person? Do we also take it that you are reconciled to the findings of that hearing being unfavourable to you?

 

You do not specify the reasons/reasons for the disciplinary action. You do not specify any solid grounds you may have for appealing against the decision that you seem convinced has been reached. Nor do you ask for any help in making a case for yourself, or supporting your appeal.

 

“All in all, i would like to grab those 5 extra days, pretending i am sick and therefore suspending the appeal until i resume work.

 

If that doesnt work, I will appeal and the process will start from scratch again- giving me more stress, more wasted time, but more money....”

 

Your main concern appears to be how to extend your employment status for another week, for personal gain, by fair means or foul. You are more or less suggesting that your ‘illness’ is a ruse to defraud your employer out of an additional week’s wages. To that end you are asking for support for, and complicity in, your deception.

 

Do you have a note from a doctor stating that your sudden illness was brought about by the events surrounding your present predicament, and that this illness is such that you cannot possibly proceed with your appeal? Scheming on here does not appear to present you with any problems.

 

Most subscribers and contributors to this site do so on the understanding that they are helping to put right a wrong, not to aid and abet underhand or illegal activities. The reputation, integrity and honesty of this site would be compromised, it may even be forced to shut down, if it became known merely as an instrument for aiding duplicity, abetting illegality and attempting to pervert the course of justice.

[froginlondon]

@ conciliator I see your point. See initial question. My case is long and extensive and I benefit from professional advice. Thank you, though

 

@ stu007 the decision was meant for Friday. I managed to delay it to Monday 31st Oct. The decision has been taken, and now it is a matter of communication. Both face to face and in writing. I will receive documents. I do not plan to attend the face to face meeting on Monday.

 

@ papasmurf nothing about the race, but the frenchness didnt do me any favours. An external stakeholder turned on me, and my boss was too happy to leverage this and use it against me. I suspect my boss and the external stakeholder formed an alliance to discuss and agree on the terms of my exit and timings, however this is virtually impossible to prove... There are nonetheless written communication between the two, expressing frustration towards me, my skills, and support. For the ET1, i have little time, and with no job, I am best focussing on sorting out myself (i live alone). As much as I would love to take them to Tribunal, this is difficult, and I lack the basics knowledge to be able to do it myself, successfully. And I prefer not to limber the court and have to support the cost!

 

All in all... I keep learning! I am obviously very grateful for your time today. I wouldnt rely on your time and support if the situation was a bit tricky. Not to mention the ex partner forcing the sale of the flat! I am happy to leave my employer, however my exit is clearly unfair. It is a shame, though, that we havent agreed on a compromise agreement, and that I have difficulties proving and supporting my grievances to a tribunal. Not here to do wrong, but to restore a bit of justice/fairness into my case by abiding to employment law (that line is for you conciliator).

 

Tks all!