Being sued by Cowboy Builders - please help *** Claim Struck Out ***

[wonky100]

Please, please, please can someone answer my questions? I know I'm a pest!

 

Also, when looking at the witness statements again 2 of them are identical, word for word except the names have been changed! And apparently the 2 witnesses live together as they've given the same address (I'm thinking that someone has simply forgotten to change the address on one of them as the statements quite clearly state that they are "work" partners). Also, there's a typo in the post code.

 

The SJE has been out today, will post his report up in time, and he has never heard of JIB which the electrician is claiming to be a member of. I've googled this and can only find Joint Industry Board which seems to be for the benefit of his employees only. The SJE said he should have been a member of ECA or NICEIC. If he was surely he'd have put this in his witness statement and not just JIB. Also the "roofing experts" do not say who they work for and what their expertise is. Should they?

 

Pleeeaaaase can anyone assist? I appreciate I've had far more than my fair share of advice.

[unclebulgaria67]

I have alerted the site team to see if someone can answer your question. It is all getting a bit technical for me !

[wonky100]

Thanks Uncle Bulgaria

 

I do have an appt with the PSU tomorrow but they're only meant to offer procedural advice and support, but we'll see how it goes.

[TTTT]

Hi Wonky

 

If its any help I have a Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate off the electrians that did my work I am sure they are the same ones that did your work.

I have names and a NICEIC reg. number please let me know if you want any details.

 

Keep up the good work and don't let theses cowboys win

 

TTTT

[TTTT]

Hi Wonky

 

Just checked the trading name and the address and none of them match

[wonky100]

Hi TTTT

 

Have sent you a PM. Hope you don't mind.

[citizenB]

Please, please, please can someone answer my questions? I know I'm a pest!

 

Also, when looking at the witness statements again 2 of them are identical, word for word except the names have been changed! And apparently the 2 witnesses live together as they've given the same address (I'm thinking that someone has simply forgotten to change the address on one of them as the statements quite clearly state that they are "work" partners). Also, there's a typo in the post code.

 

The SJE has been out today, will post his report up in time, and he has never heard of JIB which the electrician is claiming to be a member of. I've googled this and can only find Joint Industry Board which seems to be for the benefit of his employees only. The SJE said he should have been a member of ECA or NICEIC. If he was surely he'd have put this in his witness statement and not just JIB. Also the "roofing experts" do not say who they work for and what their expertise is. Should they?

 

Pleeeaaaase can anyone assist? I appreciate I've had far more than my fair share of advice.

 

I have sent an S.O.S to andyorch to see if he has any comments

[wonky100]

Hello again

 

Thanks for sending an SOS Citizen B. Just returned from the PSU today and I think (and hope) I've been provided with some sound advice.

[GuidoT]

I would not be that concerned regarding the witness statement including errors, just refer to such when you prepare your rebuttal statements.

 

The JIB is the Joint Industry Board, have a look here for more details.

http://electricalqualifications.com/jib.html

 

An electrician needs to be produce a test certificate once the installation is complete, that electrician needs to hold the right qualifications, I am not sure exactly what these are for domestic but your surveyor is aware of the appropriate bodies (Electrical Contractors Association). The absence of such test certificates should be enough to demonstrate the electrics are incomplete.

[wonky100]

Thanks Guido T

 

I wasn't sure if I could refer to the claimant & co's witness statements when doing my supplementary statement but the PSU have advised today that I need to go through each point and if I don't agree say so and attach any evidence which I may have to support why I don't agree.

 

The surveyor who attended yesterday is referring the electrics to an electrician. He asked if we had checked the electrical sockets and yes we had, so we could confirm that they at least worked. He then asked if we had checked the tv arial, no as we're not using the room and therefore haven't fitted a TV. So he took the front off (he did check the electrical sockets also) and there was no wiring to it! The PSU have told me to refer to this is my supplementary witness statement. The surveyor then checked the socket in my kitchen which is where the conservatory electrics have been wired into and pulled a face. I asked him if the face was good news or bad news. He said it was not good (so I guess it was good for us, only to demonstrate poor workmanship as I certainly don't want ppor electrics). He's taken photos and is going to check with an electrician. He needs to speak an electrician to check that this isn’t now an accepted way of doing this, although he hasn’t seen it before. Until then, he can’t officially condemn it, but even if it is wrong, he considers that our fuse box is up to date enough to deal with any fall out from faulty wiring so there is no immediate worry (apologies for the change of colour, don't know how I did it and can't change it back!).

As you'll see from TTTT's post at 455, it doesn't bode well for us ever getting an electrical certificate. I've been provided with copy correspondence and what can I say? Once again it a complete web of deceipt.

Edited April 19, 2012 by GuidoT
Now the same colour

[asokn]

I wasn't sure if I could refer to the claimant & co's witness statements when doing my supplementary statement but the PSU have advised today that I need to go through each point and if I don't agree say so and attach any evidence which I may have to support why I don't agree.

 

Don't be at all shy about doing that, you need to attack their evidence and make clear what your case is by showing what is in dispute and why.

[GuidoT]

Thanks Guido T

 

I wasn't sure if I could refer to the claimant & co's witness statements when doing my supplementary statement but the PSU have advised today that I need to go through each point and if I don't agree say so and attach any evidence which I may have to support why I don't agree.

 

The surveyor who attended yesterday is referring the electrics to an electrician. He asked if we had checked the electrical sockets and yes we had, so we could confirm that they at least worked. He then asked if we had checked the tv arial, no as we're not using the room and therefore haven't fitted a TV. So he took the front off (he did check the electrical sockets also) and there was no wiring to it! The PSU have told me to refer to this is my supplementary witness statement. The surveyor then checked the socket in my kitchen which is where the conservatory electrics have been wired into and pulled a face. I asked him if the face was good news or bad news. He said it was not good (so I guess it was good for us, only to demonstrate poor workmanship as I certainly don't want ppor electrics). He's taken photos and is going to check with an electrician. He needs to speak an electrician to check that this isn’t now an accepted way of doing this, although he hasn’t seen it before. Until then, he can’t officially condemn it, but even if it is wrong, he considers that our fuse box is up to date enough to deal with any fall out from faulty wiring so there is no immediate worry (apologies for the change of colour, don't know how I did it and can't change it back!).

 

As you'll see from TTTT's post at 455, it doesn't bode well for us ever getting an electrical certificate. I've been provided with copy correspondence and what can I say? Once again it a complete web of deceipt.

 

Not sure who the PSU are, but they are right in that respond to each paragraph that you do not agree to without reiterating to much of what your original statement says.

[wonky100]

Hello TTTT & Guido T (and anyone else!)

 

TTTT, the company shown on your certificate are members of NICEIC but they're based in St Austells not Liverpool. So I googled the telephone number given on the certificate and it brings up A J XXXXXX (the name on your certificate). I've checked the NICEIC website and there are no members with the name A J XXXXXXX or with the postcode on your certificate. A J XXXXXX is or was a Ltd company. Their last registered address wasn't in Liverpool but they did have a registered address in Aintree at one time. This company ceased trading in May 2010 so well before the date that your certificate is signed in February 2011.

 

Guido T, can you tell us what we should be doing about this? There is a registration number on the certificate - can we check who this belongs to?

 

SJE who attended our home yesterday has written to the claimant's solicitor asking for confirmation that they are members of a competent person scheme, that the local authority has been informed (did they need to be informed, would planning permission no be sufficient? building regs were not required) and for confirmation that a certificate has been completed (although it hasn't been issued due to an unpaid invoice - I never got an invoice so presume the upaid invoice is between the claimant and the contractor). I'm hoping that the SJE is going to ask for evidence.

 

PSU - Personal Support Unit (at the Court).

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

Thanks

[wonky100]

Just finished checking the websites of all the competent person schemes on the communities and local government website and not surprisingly, I can't find the electrician who did electrics at my home!

[wobbly]

The electrician should be Part P registered ,various organisations do this such as elecsa,napit,etc,the electrician should also have given you the instalation and test certificate.You mentioned a few posts back about him being JIB registered,the JIB is an employers scheme and being having a JIB card does not remove the requirement to be Part P registered although it may prove to what level of an electrician the guy is.I hope this has been some help.

[wonky100]

Thanks Wobbly, any advice is greatly appreciate.

 

I checked JIB and established that it was an employers scheme (sorry if that comes across all wrong, it's not meant to). But I've also checked the JIB website and the electrician who came to my home, despite saying he's a member of JIB isn't currently recorded. I've checked elecsa and napit and more and he's not registered with them. This is a complete [problem]. Their reason for not giving a certificate is that I haven't paid (paid so much and then claimed back from credit card). I understand this reasoning, but I don't think I'd have ever got a certificate. TTTT who did pay and got a certificate, seems to have got a fraudulent certificate.

 

I know I'm going off about the electrics at the mo and the SJE said yesterday that he thinks that our fuse box would protect us if there was any miswiring, but it shouldn't have been wired in wrong (there's actual no wires in the tv ariel!).

 

Also, there are other issues. Which we always knew.

 

The roof is wrong, as is the damp proof course, which we always knew. It's now been confirmed verbally that the foundations are insufficient. It's a complete shambles. Even had it been a "normal" conservatory the foundations would not have been sufficient (these were checked yesterday for the first time). We have drains running under our conservatory/orangery and have been advised that the foundations don't even go as far as the drains, let alone going the recommended 450mm below the drains to support them. Our neighbours drains have been checked and there is a blockage between us and our neighbours and because of the way the drains run the blockage is with us somewhere. It may be that it's simply a build up of debris but we won't know unless we get cameras down there. We are going to use some rods at the weekend to try and clear the blockage, but if the drains have collapsed....... This is worse than I ever imagined. Good for the court case, but certainly not what I ever wanted. We've told our neighbour that we've had a surveyor out who has advised that there is a blockage but we haven't yet told our neighbour that our foundations are insufficient. I'm sure it won't be long for him to realise this if we can't clear the blockage.

 

Also safety glass hasn't been used everywhere it should have been. Very minor I guess with everything else that's being discovered.

 

It's a mess!

 

If only they'd fixed the roof and damp proof course, we would never have questionned everything else. Ignorance really would have been bliss!

 

Sorry, Guido T for asking you about the electrician. Just woken up to the fact that you're not an electrician! I only asked you as it's the SJE (surveyor) who has raised questions about the electrician. So if there are any electricians out there, your advice as to what can be done about this aspect of my build and other builds would be greatly appreciate.

[wonky100]

Just thought I'd share my funny story from when I attended the PSU today (probably won't sound funny now, but just to show I can still laugh).

 

Queued up to get into the court buildings today, which is quite unusual. Opened my bag and put it on the table to be inspected. Walked through the detector and stood with my arms in the air for them to check me. Turned round when asked so they could scan my back. Nothing unusual so far (other than the wait). I then hear the security guard ask me to stand on one leg! I go to raise one leg but just before I do I look over my shoulder and see the security guard laughing!!! He almost got me, better luck next time!

[asokn]

 

That reminds me of a time I was passing through court security and overhead the guard asking a lawyer if he "had any sharp objects" to which the lawyer replied "only my mind".

[wonky100]

Lol

[wobbly]

Hi Wonky100,

I am an electrician although retired now,it would appear to me that the electrician was working for a back hander or was not qualified or registered.I wouldnt worry about the TV aerial outlet as that is not an electrical item as such ,he maybe thought that it would have been fed from outside through the back to an aerial on the roof.You should have been issued with the electrical instalation certificate when he had finished the instalation and completed testing,this should have been issued believe it or not wether you had paid him or not,although I suspect you hadnt employed him yourself but he was working for the builder.The fuse box wouldnt nescesarily protect you,it may not have an RCD protecting the circuits the MCBs may be the incorrect type or wrong rating for the circuit cables.I would suggest you get a periodic test of your instalation ,this may cost up to £200 but you will recieve a written report.Any problems found could be useful as evidence against the Builder/Electrician.

[wonky100]

Wobbly, could I pick your brains please? (I appreciate this isn't a DIY Forum but just thought I'd ask anyhow!)

 

Been thinking of appointing an electrician, but from what I've been reading on the internet an electrician isn't allowed to sign off someone else's work (as they don't know what work has been done under floors, in ceilings, behind plasterwork etc). I also understand that the periodic test is different to the electricial certificate and that if we ever came to sell our home we'd need the certificate. Hubby has spoken to local Building Control who can issue necessary paperwork for £77 but first we need to get someone to sign off the work.

 

As far as I'm aware the claimant's solicitor hasn't got back to the surveyor re the electrical installation so not sure if the surveyor is simply going to appoint someone as part of his investigation and it would seem pointless for us to pay for an electrician and for us to pay jointly with the claimant for someone else.

 

Hubby has spoken with building control and they say the job needs to be notified to them because of the outside electrical socket (we paid the electrician extra for this). Not too sure whether building control need to know because the electrical cabling comes out of a socket in the kitchen runs partly down our drive, round the corner of the house and under the kitchen window before it goes into the conservatory at the outside electric socket. The wiring is encased in a platic tube. Building Control have confirmed that they haven't been informed.

 

I've also read that failure to comply with Part P of the Building Regulations is a criminal offence. Am I reading too much or should I be including this in my witness statement?

 

Wobbly you are right, the builder appointed the electrician - a different company, even though we were told verbally that everyone worked for the builder and nothing was subcontracted out. I have checked JIB and can't see that he is a current member. I've also checked all the competent person schemes and I can't find that the builder is registered to any of these also.

 

Not even thinking about the foundations for now! So far the advice I've been told is to dig it up and start again!!! Will have to see what the surveyor says.

 

Thanks

[unclebulgaria67]

Don't know much about electrics.

 

But just a thought. If you got building control officers to investigate, I wonder whether they would issue a damning report on the work completed and be willing to provide such to the court.

 

If they were able, this might be of help to your case.

[wobbly]

The reason I said have a periodic done is to confirm that your wiring conforms to the regulations.Please enlighten me as to what wiring has been done?,if all thats been done is a powerpoint and the lights,it maybe cheaper to have it redone as that shouldnt be too expensive,it is unlikely that another electrician would certify someone elses wiring nowdays ,although when a periodic is done thats what is effectivly happening.Although obviously its a visual and instument test of the instalation and as you rightly pointed out the inaccessable parts are unknown.

[wonky100]

Thanks Uncle Bulgaria and Wobbly

 

We had an electrician come out this morning who is unable to certify the work that has been done. He identified a number of faults just by giving it a quick once over. He said for £100 that he could come back and do a periodic test. However, the council have now confirmed, in writing, that the electrics are subject to building control or under the competent person scheme but they haven't been notified of the work by a competent person. So it looks like an electrician will need to be appointed as part of the survey by the SJE. Also, the claimant's solicitors haven't even acknowledged the surveyor.

 

Now for a bit of good news - I think I've managed to get the assistance of a solicitor/barrister via Lawworks. Fingers crossed!

 

Now for the bad news - she's suggesting mediation. After everything that's gone on?! Anyhow, I've thrown the ball back in her court and have asked her for her advice as to what she hopes to achieve by mediation. The builder wants paying, we don't want to pay. The foundations are insufficient, the damp proof course is insufficient, the electrics need work, some windows/glass needs replacing, the roof needs work, it'll need replastering because of all the mould. It might actually be better to take it down and start again, which is what we were told months ago. Plus then there's our inconvenience to put it all right, when the job should have just been done properly in the first place. I don't think there's actually anything right with it but we just need the SJE's report now.

 

Thanks again for the help.

[wonky100]

Hello all

 

Quickish update. SJE report received this am. It is pages and pages, so can't scan atm but the Summary & Conclusion states:

 

My instruction is to consider the conservatory and make comment under the following headings:

 

What works have been undertaken in respect of the structure

In my opinion the conservatory is completed

 

Are there any defects with the structure

The defects have been discussed in detail int he preceding paragraphs but can be summarised as follows:

 

Roof - inadequate fall to parapet gutters, poor lining to gutters, leaking roof, poor detail to parapet walls and copings, poor abutment details, poor roofwater drainage, internal damage to plasterboard ceiling, overstressed roof timbers and deflecting gutter boards

 

Walls - inadequate cavity tray details to rear elevation, friable brickwork pointing requiring minor patch repointing, internal damage to plasterboard drylining

 

Foundations - inadequate depth and width, lack of protection to sewers

 

Floor - poor detailing at dpc level, missing sub floor ventilation duct, suspected missing damp proof membrane

 

Electrics - no test certificate, missing RCD to external socket, exposed external cable, conduit liable to damage

 

If there are defects are they cosmetic or structural

The defects are not considered to be cosmetic: they relate to Health & Safety issues and problems of water ingress that if not repaired will lead to serious deterioration

 

What were the defects, if any, caused by

In my opinion, the defects are a consequence of care and attention in the specification, construction and detailing of the extension. In my opinion the quality of workmanship and skill and standard of care in the carrying out of the original works is not to a satisfactory standard.

 

Are the defects, if any, capable of repair and what would the cost be

I have prepared an approximate estimate of the cost of repairs to be in the region of £15,444 including VAT but excluding professional fees.

 

Should the conservatory be removed

It is not absolutely necessary to remove the conservatory to carry out the repairs. However, the building work would be more straight forward if the structure was demolished and rebuilt and may not necessarily incur any additional costs.

 

What is the current value of the conservatory

The cost to repair exceeds the original build cost and therefore the only value that can be attributed is the salvage value of the lantern roof and windows and side doors. However, this value will be set off by the cost of demolition.

 

Are there any mitigating factors which could have caused any damage

The original lead flashing below the rear dormer window is at the end of its service life, but I consider that it does not make any significant contribution to the areas of defect found in the conservatory.

 

The claimant company have sworn blind that they have replaced this lead flashing and that this cost was over and above the contract value and that they didn't charge us to replace it.

 

The flooring needs underpinning and the concretes slab base needs taking up and replacing. It would be so much easier to demolish and rebuild.

 

I wonder if they'll withdrawn their claim now? I now want the difference between the contract value (£13,000) and the cost to repair (£2,444) plus my legal costs (£1,360) plus my contribution to the SJE (£720) plus the cost of replacing the flooring (approx £750). I don't fancy my chances.

 

Update to follow in due course.

 

Thanks all