Debenhams Store Card PPI ***Urgent Help Required*******

[Kate1973]

Definately, sorry it was more of a sarcastic remark, Humour not my best point!!.

 

Thes sites are very much needed and appreciated to help get people a fair treatment....

[caro]

Good luck for tomorrow Kate.

 

Allow yourself plenty of time to get there.

 

Don't let anyone intimidate you beforehand. If you aren't happy with what their rep says, clearly say that you'd rather hear what the judge has to say.

 

Be respectful to the judge.

 

Keep calm (deep breaths can be very helpful)!!

 

If you aren't clear about anything that's being said, politely ask for clarification or an explanation. Remember the judge is there to listen to both sides and make sure of fair play.

 

You've got everyone here behind you so go get 'em girl!!!!

[alibobsy]

I assume Kate will be there now so sending her positive vibes, lets all have our fingers and toes crossed for her that she gets a decent DJ.

 

Ali x

[Kate1973]

Hiya folks

 

Update - i lost. Will let you have some details later but too upset at the moment.

[caro]

Sorry to hear this Kate. Let us know what happened as soon as you can in case there may be grounds for an appeal.

[Kate1973]

Hi Caro

 

Basically as i had had the PPI for 13 years i have had more that opportunity to complain/query/question it.

 

I signed the box for the PPI and it was clear in that box what it covered and my 30 day cooling off period.

 

As i do not have anything else paperwork wise i cannot claim mis sale.

 

I did also go with the Comission route as per MBNA V Thorius case but as i have no proof that comission was actually paid, no claim.

 

The fact that They had 17 months missing statements, a DPA breach, and breaching OFT guidance did highlight their record keeping left a lot to be desired, but not enough.

 

And the burden of proof was on me.

 

At the start the Judge said that if it was found in my favour, no CI, just max of stat in the court could award.

 

I should have questioned the reasons for this but having not been in this situation i didn't and accepted his comments. No reasoning as to why?

 

Am so dissapointed as have spent so much time on this, just feel it is such a waste,

all the judge was interested in was my mis sale evidence,

and nothing to do with their errors or lack of detailed Skelly as they were asked to provide by the original judge at the allocation hearing.

 

The judge admitted they had not supplied such detail and even questioned if the Skelly had been prepared by a lawyer.

 

And it wasn't even HC who were present, another freelance rep.....

Edited February 28, 2012 by Kate1973

[dx100uk]

Basically as i had had the PPI for 13 years i have had more that opportunity to complain/query/question it.

I signed the box for the PPI and it was clear in that box what it covered and my 30 day cooling off period.

As i do not have anything else paperwork wise i cannot claim mis sale.

 

 

..............

 

i dont sit happy with that conclusion, as i suspect neither does IMS21

 

though i suppose if honesty were to prevail, i dounbt that judge would have awarded even if you were 100% due it!

 

just because you had the PPI for 13yrs etc etc

 

does not over ride the fact that you DIDN'T KNOW it could be mis-sold until recent years....

 

 

muppet judge

 

dx

[ims21]

Hi

 

I agree with dx.

 

This stuff about having 13 years to question it doesn't sit well with me either. It was only early last year following the JR that millions of people became aware that PPI was mis-sold on such a huge scale. That was the publicity that alerted millions to it. Millions were previously not aware that it could be claimed back.

 

Sounds to me like the Judge has possibly made an error of judgement here.

 

ims

[gezwee]

It gives the appearance that the dj had decided matters at the outset - level playing field my a**e

[Kate1973]

Hi Folks

 

So where does that leave me???, to be honest thinking back it does feel like it was already decided?? I don't want to be putting myself through all stress and hasstle for something which isn't worth fighting for??? I do agree that the whole point of being made aware recently of mis selling is the reason why so many didn't query/question it much earlier?

[gezwee]

Hi Kate

 

Can you remember if the dj summed up the judgment, or were you in a bit of a daze at the end of it?

 

Really depends on whether he found in totality for them and whether costs were ordered.

 

Whilst its not a nice result for anybody to have to put up with, if it was judgment in the original sum of circa 1k only and you can agree schedule of repayment, you have to ask yourself if you want to go through this all over again with an appeal.

 

Gez

[Kate1973]

Hi Gez

 

Was in a bit of a daze really, he found in their favour and i also have to pay their costs (not legal costs tho as he refused this). I'm just really miffed that the whole issue of the mis sale scandal has been completely missed, i e people were not aware oer the last 13 years that this had been ongoing. Plus the fact that they had been ordered to senk in their detailed skelly to take in and refer to specific recent case law surrounding PPI claims and the Judge had catagorically stated they hadn't done that and doubted wether the Skelly had even been written by a lawyer??

[gezwee]

Hi Kate

 

Focus on the positives [or it'll do your nut in], you made the turds wait an extra year on the account and no costs awarded beyond filing/hearing fee........... bet its cheaper than the interest

 

Have a few days to think about what you want to do with this, you can appeal by right but you need a strong case and you risk costs if you go after them again and fail.

 

Your decision but you'll get plenty of support on here whatever you decide.

 

Gez

[Kate1973]

I think i've just found a bit of a Gem.

The competion commissioners report into PPI does discuss PPI and commission which is paid to the 'distributors' of the PPI, i.e debenhams store card.

 

When i talked about this yesterday i had no proof of this with me but knew it was the case that this is how the market works.

 

What are thought peeps??

 

Is this worth persuing??

 

Even if i did sign up 13 years ago and even if the account cover brochure was sent to me there is certainly no mention of the commission which the 'distributor' would have received??

 

This was one of my arguments re the unfair relationship point??

 

If i were to appeal am i able to use any new material to base the appeal on or is it purely on what i have already submitted???

[dx100uk]

no you are more than allowed to include anything new in an appeal

 

thats what appeals are about.

 

dx

[gezwee]

Hi Kate

 

As far as I'm aware any argument would fall within part 52, and its pretty much up to the court to interpret the rules as to whether a new position could be pleaded.

 

Having said that, if you've already raised the argument then supporting evidence should be allowed. Try to build a case and weigh up the pros and cons before proceeding. Personally I'd lick my wounds and put it down to experience [it's a small loss in the big scheme of things] but it's entirely your decision.

 

Did the dj mention if the case was reserved on appeal?

 

Gez

[Kate1973]

*bump*, need as many opinions as possible please. All will help me decide. Thanks to those already helping me decide.

[I hate paying fines]

Hi Kate, Very Sorry that you lost but you did put up a fight for your rtghts and that also count.

Did you get the written Judgement? If you have or it might come in post, could you post it here for others to benefit from it, or comment on it.

Good luck for your appeal if you decide one.

[caro]

It depends what it's worth to you Kate. You should be aware that if you lose an appeal you're likely to have to pay costs - and I think that would include legal costs.

 

Is the money and the principle worth the stress and angst. Only you can decide on that.

[citizenB]

Kate, the information below was given to another cagger.. knowing the process, might help you decide.

BRW on Appealing

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2927407.html

 

This is just some general advice on how to handle an Appeal (taken from one of my other ramblings elsewhere on CAG), which may be of interest to both you/Fred and any other genuine Caggers that may like to know.

 

Fred has 21 days to get his Appeal in, and whilst it may seem daunting, it's not as bad as it seems, provided he gets started and works through all of the steps to get everything ready in time for the 21 day Deadline.

 

This is the bit of CPR Fred needs to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

A key admin step is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

That is just a simple Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful now to several Caggers.

 

If Fred can afford it, I would also recommend that he has the Full Hearing Transcribed in addition to the Judgment.

 

To clarify, the Hearing is always divided into two key areas when it comes to Transcribing the Tape(s):

• The Main Hearing (less the Judgment).
  

• The Judgment.
  

There can only ever be one Judgment Transcription, because the Judge has the right to check and adjust that, before allowing it to be released. In my experience, be prepared for some changes there to soften how things were actually said in Court! But there's nothing you can do, just get a copy of the Judgment, and allow time to organise that and be prepared that the Judge will want to see it to approve it, before Fred sees it. Best therefore to crack on with that ASAP.

 

I would advise trying to get the Main Hearing as well, although that will cost a lot more, depending on the number of spoken words and the time the Hearing took. But this can prove invaluable. Fred needs this if he can afford it.

 

Transcriptions can be paid for by the Court, if Fred is on a very low income etc, but he has to pay for them first before he can re-claim the costs. It also takes a long time to get any money back from the Courts.

 

On this subject, see CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

N460

 

This is a Form the Judge has to complete if an Appeal was requested and refused on the day. In that case, the Judge is supposed to complete an N460 straight away, rather than being asked.

 

So, if needed, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. That Form is very simple, and just sets out the reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a précis of the Judgment but should not be confused with the Judgment Transcription which will be much longer than what you see on the N24 Order. Fred will also need that N24 Order for his Appeal Application. That should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

Fred should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting his N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just another Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with the Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get them on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal (if needed)

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then you have a further 14 days to follow on with the full Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include a Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment being Appealed. Most of the docs Fred will have had from the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal if that is also needed (i.e. if permission was refused at the Hearing).

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment the Judge made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is Fred's chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost Fred right now is the Judgment Transcription. He can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so do keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is also key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you and Fred may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of the Costs, both for the Appeal, and also for the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal (assuming you need permission, if the Appeal was not refused at the Hearing, then you may not need to ask for permission to Appeal and can just go ahead and submit the Appeal)...the Barrister can make the paperwork better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

Best of luck with this.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[means2anend]

One of the major arguments that BBA put forward in the April 2011 case was that any enforcement should simply be limited to disciplinary measures BETWEEN FSA and Banks only...however High Court decided that private actions could take place between CUSTOMER and Banks and that ACTIONABILITY was not excluded by s150(2) FSA 2000

 

I know that FSA fined GE Capital (owner of Debs store Cards) in 2007 £610,000 for systematic miss-selling of PPI's

 

here

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/library/communication/pr/2007/015.shtml

[cups]

For info, my Debenhams card from 1995 was ticked by a store sales assistant, it has her name next to it, because they got a bonus for each PPI sold!!

Someone in Debs told me that!!

Why else would they do it??

Cups

[needmore]

Take them to the cleaners.

And don't take no for an answer.

 

I think a lot of the banks are now playing silly b...ers, and trying to take claimants for idiots.

 

I personally think when the banks were told they would have to pay people back their ppi premiums & interest.

 

A seperate body should have been dealing with it.

And i don't mean the FOS. I

 

just think if banks can get away with saying no, then they will.

 

Do not put up with it.

 

Do whatever you have to do, to get the response you want. And good luck with it.