Ingeus

[antone]

The polite thing to do if someone arrives with the best intentions but perhaps not in the manner afforded by experience, is to welcome them & guide them if they are sailing close to the wind.

 

"Learn & understand." Has anyone afforded me that courtesy today - has anyone tried?

 

You can keep your big sticks & subtle censorship - I'll take my time & efforts elsewhere.

 

So much for waking up today & having the wild notion of trying to help/support others. This is why people are reluctant to do it.

 

Oh, get off your high horse. I haven't threatened you and I haven't censored you.

 

Do you find this approach normally works for you? "Don't worry, poor unemployed people, I'm here to help! Here's what you're doing wrong."

[Bakatcha]

The polite thing to do if someone arrives with the best intentions but perhaps not in the manner afforded by experience, is to welcome them & guide them if they are sailing close to the wind.

 

"Learn & understand." Has anyone afforded me that courtesy today - has anyone tried?

 

You can keep your big sticks & subtle censorship - I'll take my time & efforts elsewhere.

 

So much for waking up today & having the wild notion of trying to help/support others. This is why people are reluctant to do it.

How very condescending of you. Go away and learn - you could actually start by reading this thread!

Then if you have something constructive to say come back.

I will not waste my time deconstructing your posts - basically they're not worth the effort. Take your own advice "Learn & understand".

[RaeUK]

Oh, another WUM on the forum.

** grabs popcorn **

[antone]

Oh, another WUM on the forum.

** grabs popcorn **

 

Too late Rae, I've offended him and he won't be back, we're assured.

[dyfed]

Firstly, let me make this absolutely clear, I would never consider seeking help for mental health issues with WP providers or any private company for that matter.

 

With that cleared up, I raised the issue because I thought it was worth doing so. I find it worrisome that a WP provider could be allowed to offer such a service, especially considering how mental health issues are so poorly understood by most employers, and certainly by other companies hired by the government, like ATOS. I also thought it was worth mentioning for anybody who reads this thread and has been assigned to Ingeus. Don't use the service. Don't give them any ammunition to use against you. Go to your doctor, who you can probably trust a hell of a lot more.

 

I got a leaflet about all the services they provide. I will scan it and upload it tomorrow.

 

My comment was not aimed at you. It was a general comment. I have worked in and suffer with MH for many years so I was just making a general comment about WP providers offering any type of treatment or therapy.

 

I hope thats cleared it up.

[Mr.P]

Jumping in a bit late here....

 

There's a group of people sharing strategies to thwart the main aim of a company that has the same goal as them - namely, to assist you into employment.

 

You will get good Ingeus advisors and bad advisors but I'd argue that your experience is worse because of the approach you take with them. The taxpayer is ultimately paying them to be there, their offices, their IT equipment etc... They offer training courses - some good, some bad. What should they do? Offer nothing?

 

 

The likes of Ingeus, A4e, et al have a single primary motive. To make a profit. If they can move people off benefits and get paid for their efforts, then that is what they will do. it matters not to them if the "client" ends up in a well paid and satisfying job or jumps from one NMW temporary contract to another.

 

As a tax payer (yes, I pay tax - last year enough to pay an annual JSA), I take great exception to these WP outfits claiming one thing and delivering nothing and the DWP washing their hands of responsibility. IF Ingeus & Co offered real training rather than the sham "courses" inflicted on the conscripts, I might be a little more supportive. Instead, we have "clients" being denied legitimate travel expenses, exposed to breaches of basic data security and continuous denigration.

 

I have seen inside one of these organisations, and their methods are shocking, and at times, tantamount to criminal. I have also had first hand experience of locally funded & provisioned courses (First Aid @ Work, assorted "middle management" courses) - These local provisions helped a significantly higher proportion of people in this area than the incumbent drone.

 

The answer is to put the funding in to local schemes with a proven track record rather than (multi)national private companies who have demonstrated a derisory performance.

 

For my part, if someone has a problem that I can help them with, then I'll do what I can. Sometimes it is a sympathetic ear, a pointer to some place that can do more, or CPR if it is required.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[dyfed]

This thread strikes me as very odd. There's a group of people sharing strategies to thwart the main aim of a company that has the same goal as them - namely, to assist you into employment. Given that being on the work programme means you have suffered unemployment for an extended period, it would seem obvious that you should take any help going. But instead, you seem to be wanting to make life as difficult as possible.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, Govt schemes of any measure tend to be inefficient & the rationale of some processes seem rather obtuse. But frankly, it's their scheme and you are only on it because you are accepting benefits from them. Therefore, I'd say that they have a right to decide how it goes, who runs it & how. Let's just say you were in a different position & a family member was in your current position. You lend them some money to get them by until they find work - would you accept that it's good manners to let them know what you are doing to find work in order to pay them back? How would you feel if, after accepting your money, they started telling you what jobs they would accept and whether they would share information with you? Or when they will come round and update you?

 

The extreme side of this is the individual who has added to their CV, "I do not give authority to share information with the DWP etc...." to their CV & cover letter. No employer in their right mind would interview you. That strategy is beyond self-defeating.

 

You will get good Ingeus advisors and bad advisors but I'd argue that your experience is worse because of the approach you take with them. The taxpayer is ultimately paying them to be there, their offices, their IT equipment etc... They offer training courses - some good, some bad. What should they do? Offer nothing?

 

But everyone here seems to have a clear opinion on what they shouldn't be doing, given that, I'd guess you have a clear idea of what they SHOULD be doing to help you. No-one has mentioned what that is (although I haven't read all the thread).

 

I'm happy to engage in this thread & offer ideas for you but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised that people are prepared to understand a different point of view.

 

I'm not in love with the Govt or Ingeus and have never worked for either. I've seen first hand some of the damage that the disability benefit changes have caused.

 

So, is anyone prepared to discuss how this thread can help them? Share ideas & strategies for helping each other into work?

 

OMG I think I need to lay down with a strong cup of tea with six sugars.

[dyfed]

Here is a strategy for you.

Vote in a different government.

Oh and a few thousand jobs into three million unemployed dont go.

[Mr.P]

OMG I think I need to lay down with a strong cup of tea with six sugars.

 

If you are diabetic, that much sugar in one go might not be a good idea.... Might I suggest a long soak in a hot tub instead.

[dyfed]

If you are diabetic, that much sugar in one go might not be a good idea.... Might I suggest a long soak in a hot tub instead.

 

Some times right wing comments make me want a long soak in the bath with my head under the water lol

[Helpyourself]

@antone: I don't offend easily, but people disappoint me sometimes. And whilst I'll go elsewhere - I still have a voice

@raeuk: I'm not a WUM, apologies to anyone who felt so

@dyfed: Right wing, left wing - I care not for any of it. I'm just interested in helping people get jobs.

@Mr. P: Very much the voice of reason. Your comments are spot on, especially about the worthless training. May be I should have tried it that way first. (And the Govt excluded local schemes purely by the onerous contractual terms placed on being a contractor, therefore, only the multi-nationals could afford the upfront costs).

 

And for any that dismissed my opinions in the manner that you so despise Ingeus doing it. I forgive you.

[antone]

Of course you have a voice. Go elsewhere if you like, it's (sort of) a free country and all that. But seriously, what did you expect coming in here with that attitude? I'm glad you don't offend easily - if this is typical of the way you interact with others, it's a trait you're going to need.

 

Or stay here if you like but please, for the sake of all of our sanity, drop the damn attitude. And that, incidentally, is a recommendation from a forum regular and not a moderator instruction, so please don't feel persecuted.

[Paulo83]

My comment was not aimed at you. It was a general comment. I have worked in and suffer with MH for many years so I was just making a general comment about WP providers offering any type of treatment or therapy.

 

I hope thats cleared it up.

 

Yeah. I was just clarifying that I was only raising the point and not saying I was considering signing up to anything they were offering.

 

@Helpyourself - what a rather condescending tone you have adopted in addressing people on this thread. The whole idea of the thread is to educate people in the way Ingeus can, and have treated people who are on the Work Programme. What you probably don't realise is that since the Tories came into power, there has been a drive to place Jobseekers on sanctions, and those sanctions have been toughened. Failure to comply with mandated tasks (and there are more and more stories of people being unfairly placed on sanctions because of an "unofficial" practise of comparative league tables) leads to a first penalty of 4 weeks lost benefit. Anything after leads to 13 weeks loss of benefit. Now, with that threat always hanging over your head, I think people deserve the right to know what kind of dirty tricks and schemes the likes of Ingeus can pull, so they don't fall foul of any themselves.

 

I also find it rather patronising how you think the long-term unemployed are some kind of lesser person. In case you haven't noticed from on top of your high-horse, we are sill in the biggest depression since the 1930s and possibly ever. For around 460,000 vacancies, there are 2.56 million unemployed, and further competition for jobs from people wanting to move to part-time or full-time jobs, or just simply change jobs. Ever since Thatcher and her army of neoliberal zealots got their hands on the power of government, unemployment has been used as a means to control inflation and increase competitiveness in the labour market, thus stagnating wages for lower and some/most middle earners.

 

Final point. Has it never crossed your mind that people on this thread may actually use other web forums to find advice and talk about ways of finding employment? Or use other methods of doing so? You may think you are trying to help, but with the tone you have taken so far in this thread, you are not going to be successful in any way.

[antone]

 

Final point. Has it never crossed your mind that people on this thread may actually use other web forums to find advice and talk about ways of finding employment? Or use other methods of doing so? You may think you are trying to help, but with the tone you have taken so far in this thread, you are not going to be successful in any way.

 

I'm going to pick up on this because it is actually a very good point. This is not a jobsearch support forum - it is here to allow people to get help with benefit issues. That includes issues with WP providers.

 

Now, if someone wanted to start a "Let's share our jobsearch tips" thread, I wouldn't shut it down, but there are other places on the web that could do that better than we could.

[curtseavers]

Defensive???? I've pointed out it's inefficient & made it clear I don't have much time for either the Govt or Ingeus. I totally accept the "success" rates you have quoted. As I said in my original post, no-one seems to be coming up with any answers. If you can identify that the quality of service is poor, you must surely have some ideas as to what good looks like?

 

The celebrated strategies on here only serve to defeat your own aims. I'm asking the question, can we come up with any ideas that might help everyone and you can influence your experience on the work programme for the better.

 

So any suggestions anyone?

 

My main gripe with this particular scheme is the whole mandatory work for free fiasco. Now, don't get me wrong. If you've been out of work for X amount of time then readjusting back to a working environment is a pretty fair and good idea. However, not being paid at least minimum wage whilst the provider and employer prosper aswell as the government then being able to use this 4 week period to dupe employment stats sits ill with me.

 

It's called lying. It's called slave labor. The only ones to benefit from all this are not the unemployed but the providers and the government themselves.

 

If any thing, they have helped to decrease available jobs. Certain companies such as those that take on people on these "4 week trials" ( which rarely, if ever, offer full time employment after said period) sign up with a provider. They don't need to advertise for vacancies or pay any wage at all. They have a round robin of WP victims to come in all year round. Look at if from their point of view. Why pay someone when they are forced to do it for free? And yes they are forced.

Edited June 3, 2013 by curtseavers

[curtseavers]

Regarding my own experience, I had my first meeting Friday.

The adviser was about fifteen minites late but I kind of expected that.

The adviser was very polite, very kind, very warm as you would expect. I was the same back and we zipped through the tick the boxes segment.

A small chat about what kind of job I'm looking for, when I expect to find work ( I said hopefully any day, they said to be more specific! I ended up just saying " I don't know, a day, two days , a week? You can't predict these things" So they settled on a week and wrote it down that I expected to find work within a week!).

They then questioned me about my CV, I did actualy bring a copy but since they never asked I never showed them. I said I had no problem with it, it had been modified over the year by various centres and any employer I had sent it to had never had a problem with it's design. It might probably be too over the top, if any thing. Anyway, my next meeting will concern my CV so I'm expecting to be sent on some mandatory CV session some time soon just so it looks like they're doing something. They even said they " I should send my CV to them over email but they wont have time to look over it until I come back".

When asked to sign the papers, I declined. They were a little stunned. His eyes nearly popped out and there was a small silence in the room. Awkward. However, I stuck to my guns and to be fair, the adviser accepted my choice without too much prompting and was really respectful, although they reminded me I had to accept any mandatory invitations they might send out to me.

All in all, very bizarre but I know I'm in for it on my next visit, but God wiling, I might find a job before then.

[Chester6]

This site is useful for anything you need to know to do with the drones/WP as they don't tell you this themselves and they gave the impression you need to sign everything that you are given, it's also useful so you know the games that they play and the tricks that they use, plus you can get ideas how to avoid letting the drones have too much info

The scheme has failed according to the review last year where it didn't meet the targets set, it gives the impression that they want to help but too many people are just abandoned when it's too hard to help plus the targets shows that they don't care as they prioritise the easy people

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Mr.P]

They then questioned me about my CV,[...]They even said they " I should send my CV to them over email but they wont have time to look over it until I come back".

When asked to sign the papers, I declined. They were a little stunned. His eyes nearly popped out and there was a small silence in the room. Awkward. However, I stuck to my guns and to be fair, the adviser accepted my choice without too much prompting and was really respectful, although they reminded me I had to accept any mandatory invitations they might send out to me.

 

By having a copy of your email, they can claim that you gave "implied consent" to them processing & storing your personal data - i.e. They think they will have the right to spam your CV to any/all companies without your consent. Keep control of your job applications rather than being pushed in to an unsuitable NMW contract.

 

Declining to sign their paperwork is a small step in reminding them that you are an individual and that you have expectations. Hopefully you took the opportunity to tell them that you require correct procedure to be followed if they mandate you to do anything.

[Janie_0]

My Ingeus advisor has been sending my CV out willy nilly, I don't mind but she frequently doesn't tell me and I got a call from an employer recently and I didn't know anything about the job I had apparently applied for, to add insult to injury she also phoned a couple of people and pretended to be me, one of which I called myself after her and it led to a very confusing phone call. Needless to say I didn't get either job.

[curtseavers]

By having a copy of your email, they can claim that you gave "implied consent" to them processing & storing your personal data - i.e. They think they will have the right to spam your CV to any/all companies without your consent. Keep control of your job applications rather than being pushed in to an unsuitable NMW contract.

 

Declining to sign their paperwork is a small step in reminding them that you are an individual and that you have expectations. Hopefully you took the opportunity to tell them that you require correct procedure to be followed if they mandate you to do anything.

 

In that case, I wont be sending them my CV. I'll just show them it at the meeting.

[signmaker]

My main gripe with this particular scheme is the whole mandatory work for free fiasco. Now, don't get me wrong. If you've been out of work for X amount of time then readjusting back to a working environment is a pretty fair and good idea. However, not being paid at least minimum wage whilst the provider and employer prosper aswell as the government then being able to use this 4 week period to dupe employment stats sits ill with me.

 

It's called lying. It's called slave labor. The only ones to benefit from all this are not the unemployed but the providers and the government themselves.

 

If any thing, they have helped to decrease available jobs. Certain companies such as those that take on people on these "4 week trials" ( which rarely, if ever, offer full time employment after said period) sign up with a provider. They don't need to advertise for vacancies or pay any wage at all. They have a round robin of WP victims to come in all year round. Look at if from their point of view. Why pay someone when they are forced to do it for free? And yes they are forced.

 

 

Well said, I too, do not agree with this work for free fiasco, if these companies really wanted to help the unemployed then why not give them the wage for the job that they are being forced to do, or even topping up their JSA, to minimum wage, surely this would be an incentive alone for the slave to look more vigorously for work.

 

Having a proper income for 4 weeks would be really letting the slave know what it is like to be properly employed, instead of working along side another employee who is getting paid for the same job, whilst they are working for their dole money.

 

Who really wants to work for nothing? definately not Ingeus personel and definately not higher managment.

Just ask someone in full time employment if they would work for nothing.

[Bakatcha]

@antone: I don't offend easily, but people disappoint me sometimes. And whilst I'll go elsewhere - I still have a voice

@raeuk: I'm not a WUM, apologies to anyone who felt so

@dyfed: Right wing, left wing - I care not for any of it. I'm just interested in helping people get jobs.

@Mr. P: Very much the voice of reason. Your comments are spot on, especially about the worthless training. May be I should have tried it that way first. (And the Govt excluded local schemes purely by the onerous contractual terms placed on being a contractor, therefore, only the multi-nationals could afford the upfront costs).

 

And for any that dismissed my opinions in the manner that you so despise Ingeus doing it. I forgive you.

I have neither asked for nor want your "forgiveness". Please try not to be so condescending. If you take the time to do some research you will find that there are people on this forum who are vastly better educated. better informed and more experienced than you probably are. The "unemployed" are not one homogenous mass of beer swilling, fag smoking, Jeremy Kyle watching skivers (no matter what IDS/Hoban/Gove would have you believe).

[osdset]

I saw a quote recently

'to make the rich work harder, one has to pay them more.To make the poor work harder, one has to pay them less'.

 

Sums up Tory policy for me.

[jasta11]

Some interesting - and direct - comments from our friend Helpyourself but as Antone has said, this is not a 'how to better the system' forum, it's a place for people to share knowledge and experiences concerning a WP who is, shall we say, 'not of the highest calibre'.

 

The information posted here has helped many (myself included) who didn't know their rights and were subject to exploitation by a company whose sole aim is to make money from their 'resources' ie us. Indeed, if we were getting good service and help from Ingeus this thread wouldn't even exist - or it would be titled 'Wonderful Ingeus!' We're not moaners or complainers and I'm sure we've all given Ingeus a fair chance at the start, only to be grossly disappointed.

 

Signmaker - Good for you for not signing any paperwork! Start as you mean to go on and they'll know that they have to do things by the book with you.

[Paulo83]

I'm going to pick up on this because it is actually a very good point. This is not a jobsearch support forum - it is here to allow people to get help with benefit issues. That includes issues with WP providers.

 

Now, if someone wanted to start a "Let's share our jobsearch tips" thread, I wouldn't shut it down, but there are other places on the web that could do that better than we could.

 

It's such a ridiculous notion to expect to come onto a thread offering advice and guidance for people dealing with Ingeus, and expecting to find nothing but contributors helping each other finding employment. How other people conduct their job searches or what is contained in their CV etc, is none of my business. But if somebody were to ask about best job search websites or possible courses/training opportunities, then I'm sure it would be appropriately answered by numerous users.

 

Anyway, without wanting to derail the thread any further, I had my first one-to-one appointment this morning. Just basic detail taking and asking which job areas I was interested in etc. I must say, it went better then I expected. It was better than any advisor appointment I had with Job Centre Plus. My advisor was warm, friendly and helpful and she offered some guidance on how to improve my CV. Of course, I am still wary of Ingeus and sceptical of how effective they can be at helping me find employment, given the poor success rate of WP providers. I am still willing to give it a try though, because if they do help me find employment, then that is a good thing. What I do object to though is Ingeus making a profit out of doing so.

 

@Janie - they should ask you first whether you want them to put your name forward or send your CV for a vacancy. That's at least what they have told me anyway. I would object to them sending my CV out for a host of jobs I don't want.