Welcome Finance PPI and Mr Z ** SUCCESSFUL OUTCOME **

[MrZ]

Also am I reading post 21 to say that for all the default sums charged during the "unnotified arrears" period can be reclaimed as unfair/unlawful charges?

 

I am just drafting 2 letters now regarding unfair charges and the MIF, and this legislation by my understanding seems to be exactly what I would need to cite to support my claim against the default sums.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[postggj]

evening mrz

 

seems cag has some gremlins

 

what time you about tomorow so we can move forward

[citizenB]

evening mrz

 

seems cag has some gremlins

 

what time you about tomorow so we can move forward

 

.. I have never been called a gremlin before post

[citizenB]

A new

amendment

has been made in case of failure to give notice of sums in arrears in CCA 1974. Section 11 CCA 2006inserts a new section - 86D - that sets out the consequences for a creditor or owner if he fails to give a notice as required by sections 86B or 86C.

 

If the creditor or owner fails to provide a notice of sums in arrears when required to do so, then during the period of his failure to provide the notice (i.e. from the date that it was required to be given until the end of the day on which it is eventually provided), he is not entitled to enforce the agreement. In addition,

 

The debtor or hirer is not liable to pay any

interest

that relates to the period of the creditor or owner’s failure,

 

Notice of default sums

Section 12 of CCA 2006 applies to situations where a debtor or hirer under a regulated agreement incurs a default sum.

 

A creditor or owner must give the debtor or hirer a notice in the specified form when a default sum becomes payable as a consequence of a breach of the agreement. For example, you hire a car for the duration of your

holiday

. There will often be a penalty sum payable if you incur a fine from using the car. The car-hire company might say this is to cover, for example, administration charges. Either way, certain sums are payable if you breach the agreement. Where this applies, the creditor must provide notice to the debtor, of the amount they must pay. This only applies where the default sum exceeds a specified amount.

 

Additionally, a creditor may only require a debtor to pay interest (in connection with a default sum) 28 days after the day the notice was given to the debtor. So if the creditor fails to give notice to the debtor then he can not enforce the agreement until notice is given.

 

“Default sum”

The term ‘default sum’ has been redefined in s

.18 CCA 2006.

“Default sum” now means: a sum payable by a debtor or hirer in connection with his breach of a regulated agreement (e.g. a charge imposed for late payment of an installment due under the agreement or a fee imposed for exceeding a credit limit on a credit card). A default sum does not include sums that, as a consequence of a breach of the agreement, become payable earlier than they otherwise would have done. Nor does it include interest.

 

Interest on default sums

Section 13 has been amended so that a creditor or owner may only require simple interest to be paid in respect of default sums payable by the debtor or hirer. This includes sums payable under noncommercial or small agreements.

 

Minimum 14 days after Default notices

The new minimum period after which a creditor or owner may take action (in respect of the agreement after having issued a default notice) is now 14 days. It used to be only 7 days. Section 14 CCA 2006amends section 88 of the 1974 Act to create this extension.

 

Additionally, under s87, a creditor or owner must give the debtor or hirer a default notice in the prescribed form if he wishes to:

-

terminate the agreement;

-

demand earlier payment of a sum;

-

recover possession of any goods or land;

-

treat any right conferred on the debtor or hirer by the agreement as terminated, restricted or deferred; or to

-

enforce any security

 

Section 88 is also amended to allow the Secretary of State to prescribe information in the default notice to include any matters relating to the agreement (e.g. information about whether the agreement includes a term providing for the charging of post-judgment interest).

and this is the legislation...

 

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983.pdf

 

 

 

 

I have highlighted what I think to be the relevant issues you are enquiring about, MrZ.

 

Also you mention receiving a Default Notice .. it is highly likely that the Notice didnt comply with the regulations. Do you have a copy ?

[Dustyd]

Hi,

 

To throw my twopeneth worth in. I took Wecome to court last November. I won and was awarded PPI with 8% flat interest. I took them to court on the basis of fraud in adding PPI on a contract and went for compounded 8% interest.

 

I had exactly the same as Mr Z, 2 different schedules one which was forged and dated totally different, one they had sent me, and the copies I kept from when I took out the loan. I also had a hand wrting expert's report casting prime facia doubt on the signatures.

 

Their barrister, who incidentally tried to bully me outside the court with potential £4k costs if I lost, spent most of the day refering to McGregor on Damages book, saying that it had to proven fraud. He also did not produce the original documents, and said they were not available then or in the future.

 

The judge awarded me the flat interest as he summarised that a definite case of fraud could not be proven - I think this is what may happen to you. As if they simply do not provide the originals, it is not clear wether fraud has taken place or not. Shabby trick I know, but in the end I was happy as I ended up with a cheque with 28 days.

 

Hope this helps, and PM me if you need more details.

 

Dusty

 

MrZ

I've been using the weekend to go over the claculations

for my claim against Welcome. I am leaning toward claiming

contract interest (16.20% compounded) as opposed to the

s69 interest (8% simple). Bear in mind I havent yet had

answers as to whether or not to try to claim the MIF and

other unfair charges together with my PPI/Insurance claim

for which I already have admission from Welcome of

mis-sale. Assuming I do try to claim for everything

altogether in one claim, below are my final calculations:

 

Insurance, MIF & Charges Already Paid..£5,062.19

Contract

Interest..................................£4,368.73

Total...................................................£9,430.92

 

As you can see by combining all the claims together I am

just over the small claims limits. Considering the

amount, the fact that I havent yet made a complaint to

Welcome for the MIF and unfair charges, I would like some

advice on how I should approach the claim.

 

I have intentions to send two letters off in the post

tomorrow to initiate my complaint for the charges and MIF.

I also intended to make my letters also serve as my LBA

for both. In other words something to the effect of:

 

"You have charged me unfairly for blah blah blah. You

have

14 days from receipt of this letter sent Signed For

Recorded Delivery to fully resolve the matter, otherwise

and without further notice to you, I will file a claim in

the county court, etc etc."

 

This would allow me a little time to fully work on my

claim and also cover the bases with regard to given notice

before action. I am also content to file claims for each

separate issue, but thought I might be able to get 3 birds

with one stone.

 

I would appreciate any feedback on this approach.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

 

the simple way to do this is as follows:

 

workout what % the insurances+their interest was of the total loan sum

 

then then calculate that % of your PCM

 

that figure you can then claimback each month from its date + 8% stat int using - http://www.egalegal.com/compoundWindow.html

 

rests=12

days=360

 

 

as for the charges [unlawful fees phone/letter/cats died]

 

you need to reclaim all those too before you put in a PPI claim

 

that way you wont get hit with arrears for unlawful charges.

 

you might well find the PPI+charges will clear the loan.

 

i would not both about arguing about letter, they dont HAVE to send them, only have to have a marker in an automated system that a letter 'was' sent.

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by dx100uk

workout what % the insurances+their interest was of the total loan sum

 

 

 

 

My monthly interest is 1.350. So 1.350 x 12= 16.20% per year

 

The PPI premium was 3218.82. So 3218.82 x 16.20 = 521.45 per year or 521.45 x 15 =7821.73 interest over 180 months (the length of the loan)

So 3218.82(premium) + 7821.73(interest) = £11,040.55

 

Before I go any further trying to determine what percentage this is of the full loan with interest etc, is my math correct so far in calculating the total cost of the PPI and interest for the term?

 

 

Ok so assuming the formula and calculation are correct then going further I get:

Monthly payment is 298.07. So 298.07(payment) x 180(total months)= £53,652.60 (had I known this then!?!?!?! )

Then to get the percent of total, 11,040.55 (premium w/interest) / 53,652.60 = .20577

.20577 * 100 = 20.58%

 

Can I now deduct 20.58% of every payment made to determine the amount of PPI and interest paid to date?

 

If so, then when I add all payments toward PPI w/interest to date I get £3,100.65. The 3,100.65 + the 8% (flat) statutory interest, I come up with £3,348.70 due back as opposed to the £2904.15 offer from Welcome. And if my math is correct that leaves an additional £7,691.85 to come off the balance balance of the loan.

 

By the way, I added 8% flat because the calculator in the link confused the mess out of me. It was asking for start and end dates, and because not all of my payments have been of the same amount I didnt know what to enter. Should the 8% statutory interest be applied as a flat rate or compounded?

 

Anyone care to confirm or correct this?

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

Originally Posted by dx100uk

as for the charges [unlawful fees phone/letter/cats died]

you need to reclaim all those too before you put in a PPI claim

 

 

 

Another quick question. I havent received my full SAR as of yet, but I am sure there are all sorts of charges. What constitutes an unlawful charge? My T&C's say that I authorise them to debit the account for any fees they incur e.g returned items, legal, phone calls, writing letters, etc. It doesnt list any specific amounts though. I was reading in another thread some info about claiming back arrears fees but still not 100% sure how to go about that. What other fees can I claim and on what grounds? I certainly dont mind getting them into court over this, but I can hope they will settle before getting to that stage.

 

Side note: Speaking of fees, I am still trying to come up with some sort of concrete position on the Mortgage Indemnity Fee, which is also bearing interest...just in case anyone reading this might have an opinion. I know this is a PPI thread, but just thought I'd mention it.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

I've just been doing some calculations. With this MIF on my loan, it adds approximately £5700.00 to my loan over the term. I would really like to claim this back.

 

Thoughts on the MIF anyone?

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

I've just been going through the statements from Welcome. There at MANY line items with various fees. Typically 5.00 or 10.00 fees with the description of "Conversion/Default Fee", then immediately after it on the next line and with the same date it shows "Capitalisation" with the same amount.

 

The curious thing is it doesnt actually change the balance after each fee. Sometimes the balance changes, sometimes it doesnt. But there is page after page with these fees. In addition to other fees, telephone calls, returned DD, letter, etc. Then there are the "Capitalisation" entry's for much larger amounts. They arent always consistent, so I have no idea whether this is meant to be their regular interest, or if they are just charging lump sums for something and calling it interest.

 

Very confusing to say the least. Aside from them robbing me blind, what are the legal requirements, if any, that regulates how statements should be provided so that they can be clearly understood, whithout needing to decipher?

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

From statements received from Welcome below is a list of various fees. Can anyone tell me which of these can be claimed back?

 

Fees

PPP (PPI)

Lifecare

Medicare

Mortgage Indemnity Fee

Acceptance Fee

Conversion/Default Fee

Capitalisation (Not regular

interest

, rather smaller amounts)

Principal Debit Adj

Letter

 

telephone call

Outgoing

Unpaid DD/Cheque Fee

Outside Calls

Reject CR/DR Card Payment Fee

Default Sum Fee Interest

 

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Now a post about interest. I am not sure if Welcome are on the up and up with what they are charging me. Here are some sample figures that I am working with, and I hope somone better qualified than myself can shed some light.

 

On my statment, as shown in earlier posts I have a total loan amount of 20103.82. This is inclusive of alll the fees, PPI etc.

 

Now my monthly rate is shown as 1.350 (which give an AIR of 16.20)

My APR shows 19.98

 

Now on my statement in the first month, Welcome apply a CAPITALISATION (interest) charge of 377.41.

It then shows a PRINCIPAL CREDIT ADJ of the same amount, bringing the balance once again back to 20103.82

This is then followed by a second/new CAPITALISATION charge of 379.96, increasing the balance to 20483.78...this is all prior to my first payment which is made at the end of the month (payday).

 

Even if I use the Rule of 78, which I understood to be used for early settlement and not term/regular interest, I get a figure of 370.70 (22.13%). This still doesnt tally with what Welcome have applied as interest.

 

Can anyone make heads or tails of this?

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dadofholly

 

Hi mrz

 

will have a look at the figures and come back to you soon. Am catching up on a lot so please stick with me.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

Originally Posted by dadofholly

Hi mrz

will have a look at the figures and come back to you soon. Am catching up on a lot so please stick with me.

 

 

Thats great! Thanks for the effort.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

I have just been reading over the agreement from my own records. Earlier I stated that an advanced copy of the agreement was never sent prior to signing. This is what I have just seen on my orginal copies of the agreement:

 

"YOUR RIGHTS

Under the consumer Credit Act 1974, we should have given you a copy of this agreement at least seven days ago to allow you time to consider whether to go ahead.

If we did not, the agreement cannot be enforced without a court order."

 

Here's the thing. I have the the blue advance copies...still partially attached to the two yellow signing copies. They have nearly come all the way detached from my recent inspections though. Two other things to note, the blue advance copies have no date on them anywhere. Additionally, even though the blue copies should have been detached and sent prior to signing, you can clearly see portions of the signature and initials that were registered onto the blue copies because of the carbon paper. In other words, if the two blue advanced copies had been sent ahead of time, there wouldnt be any trace of the signatures from the agreement.

 

At the time the Welcome employee came round to our house to complete an application and to see the condition of the property that was to be secured. He took our signatures and left with the "application form" and a post dated cheque for £235.00. He said he had to run our credit etc. I didnt really want to give him a cheque, post dated or otherwise, but we were told that we would have to pay the application fee if the credit check came back negative, or if the property didnt have enough equity. I stated I couldnt afford to lose 200 odd pounds just to do a credit check. He assured us he was certain based on our good payment history with our mortgage and the housing market at the time, that there would be more than enough equity and the loan would be approved without any problem. And not to worry about the fee because once the loan was approved they would just add to the end and destroy the cheque.

 

Finally as stated earlier the agreement was dated on the 4th, and cheques were sent 4 days later on the 8th, i.e no cooling off period. In the letter thanking me for choosing Welcome (the original letter dated the 8th I still have), It has the enclosures listed

 

"Enc: Cheques

Legal Agreement

Legal Charge"

 

The legal Agrrement was all 4 copies (2 yellow and 2 blue) of the "application" we signed...all still attached. And you can clearly see that the date on the agreement was completed in different ink and handwriting than our own. It was the same ink and handwriting as the Welcome employee.

 

My understanding now is the process should have gone like this.

 

1.) I complete a genuine credit application, not signing an agreement before any details had been entered or before a decision to loan had been reached.

 

2.) Upon the decision to grant the loan, I should have been sent an advance copy with key finacial information terms and conditions to review.

 

3.) Seven days or after I should have been given the formal agreement to sign and return, retaining a copy of the signed agreement for my records.

 

4.) After a cooling off period (not sure if this is a legal requirement or how many days are required) the cheques should then be issued.

 

If this is correct then it seems Welcome have failed in their duty to properly execute the agreement.

 

So my question is, do these to things alone mean not enforceable without a court order? Do they mean the agreement was not properly executed? Where would the burden of proof lie regarding all of this? I am fearful that Welcome could say they sent the copies separately even though they didnt. Its still attached to the yellow copies. But I'm afraid that after 7 and a half years and my recent perusal the copies will become fully detached. And even if they argue this, there is no date on the blue advance copies.

 

Without a proper audit of my agreement with regard to the interest and figures, which at this point doesnt seem likely, this looks like my best chance at getting a judgement of not enforceable. I feel as though I may have actually found my golden nugget. How should I approach Welcome with this new found discovery?

 

Please I would like some opinions on this.

 

As always, thanks in advance.

 

As you can see from the time of this post, its another sleepless night courtesy of Welcome Finance.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

Payment is 298.07 x 180 months.

 

Which one is correct, or is it both?

 

Total Loan Amount = £20103.82 (15,000 + PPI, MIF, & Acceptance Fee)

Total Amount Payable = £53652.60

Total Charge for Credit = £33548.78

Period Rate = 1.35%

Annual interest Rate = 16.20%

Annual Percentage Rate = 17.5% (APR)

 

 

Total Credit Amount = £18218.82 (£15,000 + £3218.82 Insurances)

Total Amount Payable = £53652.60

Total Charge for Credit = £35433.78 ( includes £1885.00 MIF & Acceptance Fee)

Period Rate = 1.53%

Annual Interest Rate = 18.36%

Annual Percentage Rate = 19.98%

 

Also, the total charge for credit... is it a prescribed term or not? My loan agreement doesnt state that its a fixed sum loan. Only "Secured Personal Loan".

 

Is the Mortgage Indemnity Fee insurance or a charge? I understood it to be insurance. Why is it not listed with insurances? If its not insurance what's it for?

 

Surely Welcome arent implying that by paying this "relatively small fee" of £1650.00, that they would be willing to write off a shortfall of up to £53652.69 (the total amount payable), are they???

 

For example, I take out the loan and then I make a few payments. I am then forced to sell the property, and my mortgage lender gets first claim, the property has little equity which leaves nothing for Welcome. So they say "dont worry we added the £1650.00 to the loan so we write off everything"? Surely not?

 

If it's insurance shouldn't it be optional?

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

 

 

you can reclaim the MIF too

 

its NOT a mortgage - its a secured loan!

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

 

 

pers i'd scan up what you have typed out

 

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or ir you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

dx

 

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

 

Originally Posted by dx100uk

you can reclaim the MIF too

 

its NOT a mortgage - its a secured loan!

 

dx

 

 

 

That's what I was hoping for. I am still searching through threads to find the best way to go about this, and for any successes. Please do let me know if you know of any threads of interest, or advice on how to best claim this back.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

 

i'd ping dado

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

 

Here are the statements. I'm scanning the agreement now.

 

Welcome_Statements_03-11.pdf

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

 

from the date of EACH of these

to the date of your claim

you can claim int + the fee at THEIR rate [16.2%]

Life Care

Medicare

MIF

acceptance fee

con/default fee

letter

telephone

unpaid DD

outgoing telephone

outside calls

reject card fee

default sum fee

default sun fee interest

use:

 

 

http://www.egalegal.com/compoundWindow.html

 

rest = 12

days=360

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by dx100uk

from the date of EACH of these

to the date of your claim

you can claim int + the fee at THEIR rate [16.2%]

Life Care

Medicare

MIF

acceptance fee

con/default fee

letter

telephone

unpaid DD

outgoing telephone

outside calls

reject card fee

default sum fee

default sun fee interest

 

use:

http://www.egalegal.com/compoundWindow.html

 

rest = 12

days=360

 

dx

 

 

These fees are "authorised" within the T&C's of the agreement. On what grounds can I claim them back? Surely they will argue that they are allowed to charge these fees, as per the terms of the agreement.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Got a letter today stating that my account has been moved to a new customer centre. Apparently another local branch has closed. Maybe this means less harassment for me. I'm not holding my breath though.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

steven4064

site team

£20103.82 paid off as 180 payments of £298.07 gives a monthly

interest

rate of 1.35% and an APR of 17.5% (using DulaCalc).

 

If your first payment was January 2004, you have made 86 payments totalling £25634.02 and you settlement figure is £16125.25 including a statutory rebate of £11893.33 (again using DualCalc). Rule of 78 is illegal now.

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB