Welcome Finance PPI and Mr Z ** SUCCESSFUL OUTCOME **

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

Originally Posted by MrZ

These fees are "authorised" within the T&C's of the agreement. On what grounds can I claim them back? Surely they will argue that they are allowed to charge these fees, as per the terms of the agreement.

 

 

 

please ........ its matter not they are in the T&C

they were not negotiated with you and do not reflect their 'true' admin costs - which they will never supply you with

 

get reclaiming.

 

as for the insurances, treat them as one bulk PPI reclaim.

 

please........do some reading of like threads here and in the PPI forum.

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by steven4064

£20103.82 paid off as 180 payments of £298.07 gives a monthly interest rate of 1.35% and an APR of 17.5% (using DulaCalc).

 

If your first payment was January 2004, you have made 86 payments totalling £25634.02 and you settlement figure is £16125.25 including a statutory rebate of £11893.33 (again using DualCalc). Rule of 78 is illegal now.

 

 

 

Thanks for that Steven,

 

I thought my APR was incorrect but needed a second opinion. I havent made 86 full payments. And I am afraid this only serves to muddle things a bit more. I missed some payments, paid some double payments, and in the last year and a half agreed a reduced payment, due to only one income, as opposed to two when the loan was taken out. Having totaled my payments, I have made 16,600.00 to date. Or taking into account the reduced and double payments, 50 payments of 298.07.

 

I'm still not sure with this leaves me regarding the enforceablity of the agreement, or whether it was properly executed for the other reasons listed (no advance copy, told to sign a blank document, incorrect APR, no cancellation form).

 

One last question, could you use Dualcalc and determine how much interest should have been applied in month 1, prior to any payments? My statements (found in pdf form on post #29 of this thread) show what seems to be very high interest being applied at the start of the loan...even more than what I get using a rule of 78 calculator.

 

Thanks!

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

Originally Posted by dx100uk

please ........ its matter not they are in the T&C

they were not negotiated with you and do not reflect their 'true' admin costs - which they will never supply you with

 

get reclaiming.

 

as for the insurances, treat them as one bulk PPI reclaim.

 

please........do some reading of like threads here and in the PPI forum.

 

dx

 

 

I was thinking along the same lines. I have been reading these threads day and night for the last month. The problem is that there are alot of opinions about what is or isnt, what should or shouldnt. I am trying to find threads that have reached a conclusion with a final update. Unfortunately it seems that alot of the Welcome threads get nearly to an end and then seem to be abandoned.

 

I appreciate the guidance!

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

BEBOBEBO

 

 

dx100uk i thought that you couldnt reclaim MIF. What supporting evidence is there to state you can reclaim it please.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

simple

 

its not a mortgage - its a secured loan!

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...Loan-agreement

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

BEBOBEBO

 

Sorry to barge your thread

MrZ

but dx i raised this issue with

fos

and they came back and replied stating they can. My complaint was rejected on this ground. I have challenged it to go to an adjudicator but there is a very long wait. Is there any supporting evidence i can use or is it simply the CCA. I have a letter from

fos

somewhere i will try and find it.

 

Mr Z you seem pretty clued up about your figures as you know to use use AIR not APR. I too had the same problem as you regarding the statement not following any pattern and i also have raised this as an issue as it seemed to be unexplained.

 

The

fos

seem to believe that the MIF is a valid charge and cannot be claimed back. Do you know of any successful cagger that have claimed this back. Would it be claimed back through FSCS.

 

All help appreciated.

 

Mr Z i seem to be a bit behind with the times and would need to do some research before i could look at your figres. I only post if i feel confident in what i am saying.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

Originally Posted by

BEBOBEBO

Sorry to barge your thread MrZ but dx i raised this issue with

fos

and they came back and replied stating they can. My complaint was rejected on this ground. I have challenged it to go to an adjudicator but there is a very long wait. Is there any supporting evidence i can use or is it simply the CCA. I have a letter from

fos

somewhere i will try and find it. .

 

 

 

 

 

please read the thread i pinned!

 

it is NOT a mortgage it is a secured loan - it is below £25k - the MINIMUM sum a mortgage can be!!!

 

dx

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

steven4064

site team

Mr Z

 

Forget unenforceability - it is a dead end. Do what dx sais, reclaim the PPI

plus

interest

on the PPI and then try and get a deal on the remainder of the loan.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

Post 58

MrZ

 

And the front page of the agreement. Note the handwriting for the dates...both the dates where welcome signed, and where I signed. I can tell you matter of factly, its not my handwriting for the date in my

signature

block! Someone backdated my signature. Shouldnt the date from the Weclome emplyee and mine be the same? I understand it may not be illegal, but why would it take them 6 days to sign? Very Dodgey! My "Welcome to Welcome" letter is attached too. This is the one where they sent both the yellow and blue copies at the same time. Notice the date in relation to the agreement dates.

 

WelcomeAgreementYellowFro nt.pdf

 

Welcome_welcomeLetter.pdf

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[MrZ]

evening mrz

 

seems cag has some gremlins

 

what time you about tomorow so we can move forward

 

Indeed post

 

I'm about now for the rest of the day and evening and my full attention is on getting this sorted.

[MrZ]

.. I have never been called a gremlin before post

Thats what you get for eating after midnight lol

[MrZ]

I have highlighted what I think to be the relevant issues you are enquiring about, MrZ.

 

Also you mention receiving a Default Notice .. it is highly likely that the Notice didnt comply with the regulations. Do you have a copy ?

 

Yes I have a copy but its from 7 years ago. There have been no default notices since then as I have been making regular reduced payments.

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

Originally Posted by

dx100uk

from the date of EACH of these

to the date of your claim

you can claim int + the fee at THEIR rate [16.2%]

Life Care

Medicare

MIF

acceptance fee

con/default fee

letter

telephone

unpaid DD

outgoing telephone

outside calls

reject card fee

default sum fee

default sun fee

interest

use:

 

http://www.egalegal.com/compoundWindow.html

 

rest = 12

days=360

 

dx

 

 

 

I'm still inputing details into a spreadsheet. Then I need to figure out how to use that calculator. Its the dates part that has me confused. Should I enter each charge individually and enter the start date as the date it was charged, and the end date as the curent date (at the time of my claim)?

 

Is compound interest allowable? Thats what they are adding as well correct? I would then add the statutory 8% simple interest to the total...is that right?

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[MrZ]

Hi,

 

To throw my twopeneth worth in. I took Wecome to court last November. I won and was awarded PPI with 8% flat interest. I took them to court on the basis of fraud in adding PPI on a contract and went for compounded 8% interest.

 

I had exactly the same as Mr Z, 2 different schedules one which was forged and dated totally different, one they had sent me, and the copies I kept from when I took out the loan. I also had a hand wrting expert's report casting prime facia doubt on the signatures.

 

Their barrister, who incidentally tried to bully me outside the court with potential £4k costs if I lost, spent most of the day refering to McGregor on Damages book, saying that it had to proven fraud. He also did not produce the original documents, and said they were not available then or in the future.

 

The judge awarded me the flat interest as he summarised that a definite case of fraud could not be proven - I think this is what may happen to you. As if they simply do not provide the originals, it is not clear wether fraud has taken place or not. Shabby trick I know, but in the end I was happy as I ended up with a cheque with 28 days.

 

Hope this helps, and PM me if you need more details.

 

Dusty

 

Thanks Dusty! Very good info. I am surprised they let it go to court. Had they at that time admitted to the mis-sale at all? I wouldnt try to allege fraud as that would be very difficult to prove. As I gave this alot of thought over the weekend, I belive I have reason to get my entire loan reduced or ruled staisified. This has to do with an improperly executed agreement (no cancellation right, no total charge for credit, no cooling off period), the amount of all the refunds due back, and the amount I have already paid. By putting all those things together I could argue that I have paid what I owe, and because of the unfair relationship from the start ask the judge to rule the debt paid in full under ss 65(1) 172(1) and 140(b). But then I though maybe i should mussy the water and just go for the PPI.

 

I felt though If i could in my claim show how unfair Welcome have been regarding all aspects of the loan I might stand a better chance at getting the judge to agree with me. And also maybe a little more footing behind asking for the restitutionary damages as the contract level.

 

Lastly, did you cite the Sempra case at all when asking for damages?

Edited May 9, 2011 by MrZ

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

 

 

no stat int

yes from the date of each fee, for each one

 

just as a side note

 

why do they seem to be only asking for the £1650 MIF

 

pers i dont think you owe them nowt

 

they owe you lotss

 

have you totalled your actual payments?

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

Post

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by

dx100uk

no stat int

yes from the date of each fee, for each one

 

just as a side note

 

why do they seem to be only asking for the £1650 MIF

 

pers i dont think you owe them nowt

 

they owe you lotss

 

have you totalled your actual payments?

 

dx

 

 

 

Just so I am clear, are you saying dont add the stat 8% to the total?

 

With regard to the MIF, I have no idea how or why its there, let alone how the amount is determined.

 

Yes I have totalled my payments. To date I have paid £16,600.00.

 

Scanning the advance blue copy to post next.

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

you can only claim stat int if the case goes to court or on PPI reclaims

as for mil neither have i

just another commission the rep got i bet.

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

dx100uk

site team

 

ho and i bet they owe you now btw

 

dx

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Here is the advance blue copy. I had to blur out a portion of it as it clearly shows portions of my signature. If you view it full size look at where the arrows are pointing. You can see its an exact carbon of the signing page. If this was meant to be sent 7 days prior to signing, why was it still under the agreement when it was signed?

 

Because I was told to sign a blank "application form". I know its not an excuse but I really didnt look carefully at what I was signing. Too trusting back then. Not anymore! When you put this together with the dates on the agreement, plus the date under my signature which isnt my handingwriting, but a match to the handwriting from the Welcome employee, and the date of the "welcome letter" you will get a very clear picture of what went down.

 

BlueAdvancePage.pdf

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by dx100uk

you can only claim stat int if the case goes to court or on PPI reclaims

as for mil neither have i

just another commission the rep got i bet.

 

dx

 

 

 

I get you now. Thats where the confusion was. You see I was trying to claim back the lifecare and medicare together with the PPI. My reason is beacuse all three were part of the same policy number, and I was told that all three were required, even though I had full pay from my employer in the event of sickness etc. Additionally I had and still have my own private insurance. Just wondering now if I need to separate the lifecare and medicare from the PPI claim? BTW I already have a letter from Welcome stating I was mis-sold the PPI, but I havent accepted their offer. I have every intention of taking the PPI/insurances claim to court and asking for compensation in cash to me in order to put me in the financial position I would have been in if i hadnt been mis-sold. My monthly would have been much less, I would have been able to put the differnce into an interst bearing fund/account, and I would have had more financial flexibility and less likely to ever have arrears, as I would have had more cash on hand or savings.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by

dx100uk

ho and i bet they owe you now btw

 

dx

 

 

Based on the advanced copies not being given, The fact that I was told I was signing an application, I may well try for a judgement of unexecuted/improperly executed agreement. The person who signed as witness has said he will swear an avadavit to that effect. He was at my home when the Welcome chap came round and had me sign the "application". If I can get a judgement saying it was improperly executed, perhaps that will leave way for a substantial calim back from them. I dunno, the whole this has been too dodgey from start to finish.

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

Originally Posted by

BEBOBEBO

Sorry to barge your thread

MrZ

but dx i raised this issue with

fos

and they came back and replied stating they can. My complaint was rejected on this ground. I have challenged it to go to an adjudicator but there is a very long wait. Is there any supporting evidence i can use or is it simply the CCA. I have a letter from

fos

somewhere i will try and find it.

 

Mr Z you seem pretty clued up about your figures as you know to use use AIR not APR. I too had the same problem as you regarding the statement not following any pattern and I also have raised this as an issue as it seemed to be unexplained. The

fos

seem to believe that the MIF is a valid charge and cannot be claimed back. Do you know of any successful cagger that have claimed this back. Would it be claimed back through FSCS.

 

All help appreciated.

 

Mr Z i seem to be a bit behind with the times and would need to do some research before i could look at your figres. I only post if i feel confident in what i am saying.

 

 

 

Feel free BEBOBEBO,

 

 

 

I too am uncertain of the legalities regarding the MIF. I have seen and read the threads I can find about it. I started a separate thread, which is now merged with this one specifically asking about the MIF. This is what I have been able to gather so far pertaining to the MIF.

 

1. Its been said that it should only be applied to mortagages or secured loans of 25,000.00 or more. (I have not seen and regulation yet that states this)

2. Its been said that it should be 75% loan to value (I have not seen any regulation that states this)

3. Mortgage Indeminty Fee is a fee to be used to purchase insurance. (This is not a regulation per se, but rather an industry norm. Mortgage lenders will charge this fee and then use the fee to purchase insurance to protect against a shortfall)

4. In the case of Welcome, they are not using this fee to purchase insurance. (I have yet to see any explanation from Welcome as to why they charge the fee)

5. Welcome are treating this fee as a Charge for Credit and it attracts interest at the same daily rate or AIR.

 

So having gathered the above information from this forum and other resources, it is my intention to write Welcome regarding only the MIF. I will not include it as part of any other complaint or claim, as I want to ensure it doesnt get "muddled over" or lost amongst other issues. I dont want to give them room to wriggle out of an explanation. I am drafting the letter today and will definitely update this thread once I have a reply.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB

[citizenB]

MrZ

 

 

Originally Posted by steven4064

Mr Z

 

Forget unenforceability - it is a dead end. Do what dx sais, reclaim the PPI plus interest on the PPI and then try and get a deal on the remainder of the loan.

 

 

 

 

 

Would this be the case even though I have evidence that would show that I was not given advanced copies of the agreement prior to signing? As in the earlier thread I have the blue advance copies that clearly show the signature from the agreement on them. An exact carbon copy. This would only be possible if the blue advance copies, that should have been provided 7 days prior to signing, were still intact and not sent. And it states very clearly on the face of the agreement that if the advance copies were not given that the agreement is unenforceable?

 

Considering this alone do you still feel its a no win/dead end? BTW I am not treatng this argument as my foundation. I am certainly pursuing PPI and insurance as one claim, Fees as one claim, MIF as one claim, and finally the unenforceabilty as a court claim regardless of the outcome of all other claims.

 

I certainly dont want to waste my or the courts time if there is good reason to believe that even though they didnt send the notices prior to signing, asked me to sign a blank agreement, and manipulated the dates of the signatures, that a court would say its still a valid and properly executed agreement.

 

Still searching through threads to find any cases similar to this.

Edited May 10, 2011 by citizenB