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Hot news for anyone who has suffered mortgage arrears charges, irresponsible lending or other unfair lender conduct

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http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/2010/120.shtml

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/final/redstone.pdf

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/final/db_uk.pdf

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/consumerinformation/firmnews/2011/db_mortgages.shtml

 

 

It is now completely clear that any arrears charges which exceed actual administrative costs are unfair and therefore unlawful.

 

Furthermore, irresponsible lending practices are also unfair and unlawful.

 

Additionally there are other unfair practices including unarranged counsellor visits - even if they have been attempted.

 

You are entitled to refuse counsellor visits and not incur any charges.

 

Any charges for counsellor visits must not seek to make profits. The cost of the visits must be passed on to you at cost price.

We are hearing stories of people being charged for counsellor visits for which there is no evidence that they were even attempted.

 

It is clear that some mortgage lenders are trying to cheat you out of your money.

 

You should ascertain how much has been taken from you and claim it back. The chances of winning are better than 90%. It is highly likely that the lender will attempt to avoid court action and offer you back your money.

 

However, you should ensure that you receive a proper rate of interest and this means that you should be seeking at least restitutionary damages - which would be much higher than the statutory 8%.

 

Furthermore, you should assess whether the paying of demands for unlawful excessive charges has also out you further into arrears and if this has caused you further penalties in terms of extra interest or any other prejudice. This should be claimed as well.

 

If excessive unlawful charges have resulted in your credit file being affected, then you should take this into account also when working out exactly what you want by way of remedy from the lender.

 

You should consult others on these forums when considering any offer.

 

You must not make any complain through the Ombudsman. your time will be wasted, you will wait up to 2 yrs and there will be a minimal 8% award of interest and no account will be taken of any other damage you have suffered.

You must make your complaint through the County Court for a rapid and effective remedy.


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That's just Redstone. We've seen the same before with other lenders.

 

I may be one of few that made it through the Ombudsman and I'm glad I went that way. I have no idea why you say you can't claim damages because they do award compensation and act fairly. The wolves are kept at bay and it gives you a hell of of lot more time than you have with the courts to discover more. They are crafty beggers and you need a fair bit of time to understand how they work and to do the research. You still have the option to take it court at every step unless you accept the final settlement..so nothing to lose and they get the hard part...

 

Not everyone can afford the court action. Don't you think that if they could it would go towards the arrears instead?

 

So you can afford it. So can they. Can you afford a solictitor? They can!

 

Is it an easy case to deal with or complex? Mortgage cases can be extreme to say the least. And a 'highly likely' in your opinion of a positive result should not be a basis for anyone to rush out there and start filling in the paperwork.

 

I respect what you are saying but don't yet agree with you. Unlike the bank charges, these are homes and not just a fee on a statement.

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That's very helpful, thank you.

 

However, it is also worth pointing out that these refer to people whose first mortgage is with that company. Many people with Kensington have them as second mortgages in order to get a loan secured against their home. It does not cover these.

 

That is not to say it is not worth claiming - I did and won, but didn't have the guts to go through the FSA although I think I may have got more money and opened the floodgates for all those others with 2nd mortgages with them.

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Hi - re using the FOS - if you are taken to court by the lender whilst a complaint is still with the FOS doesnt it mean then that if the DJ decides issues on the mortgage account it would NOT then be able to be dealt with by the FOS ?? - thanks

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If the court rules on the issues with the FOS, then the FOS can't over-rule them. The court is a higher authority. However if the FOS rule against you, you can still go to court.


 

What's Best for You?

 

 

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

 

Alliance & Leicester Moneyclaim issued 20/1/07 £225.50 full settlement received 29 January 2007

Smile £1,075.50 + interest Email request for payment 24/5/06 received £1,000.50 14/7/06 + £20 30/7/06

Yorkshire Bank Moneyclaim issued 21/6/06 £4,489.39 full settlement received 26 January 2007

:p

 

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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thanks - so therefore as i have my file is ongoing with the fos and in that time the lender has sold the product on again the new servicer says that its nothing to do with them and are taking me to court over the same charges imposed by their predecessor plus their own: surely they cannot split themselves off like this whilst merrily adding interest to the whole lot and giving that figure to the DJ??

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In theory they can't take action while the account is in dispute, so if you're disputing the issue with FOS I would say they shouldn't be taking you to court.


 

What's Best for You?

 

 

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

 

Alliance & Leicester Moneyclaim issued 20/1/07 £225.50 full settlement received 29 January 2007

Smile £1,075.50 + interest Email request for payment 24/5/06 received £1,000.50 14/7/06 + £20 30/7/06

Yorkshire Bank Moneyclaim issued 21/6/06 £4,489.39 full settlement received 26 January 2007

:p

 

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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This letter isn't exactly perfect for your problem but hopefully it should give you some info to help you write a letter to cover your problem. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?426-A-letter-when-the-account-has-been-passed-to-another-debt-collection-agency

 

I'm sure there was a letter somewhere that would have done the trick but can't find it at the mo. :|


 

What's Best for You?

 

 

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

 

Alliance & Leicester Moneyclaim issued 20/1/07 £225.50 full settlement received 29 January 2007

Smile £1,075.50 + interest Email request for payment 24/5/06 received £1,000.50 14/7/06 + £20 30/7/06

Yorkshire Bank Moneyclaim issued 21/6/06 £4,489.39 full settlement received 26 January 2007

:p

 

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hi - many thanks for that

Edited by iconoclash
too much info

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Tiz Me......I'm Back roaming CAG for a while

 

Me and the MUNGYPUP have been thinking about these arrears fees (we did have a mortgage with Abbey / Santander - but now free and clear :lol:)

 

So is it the usual route....SAR....LBA....CC

 

or have we got our Paws crossed

 

Advice would be welcome as i can't find a right lot on CAG


Beck

"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. one is by the Sword. The other is by Debt."

 

Barclaycard PPI Refund £4300:whoo:

Barclaycard = Mexican Stand Off

 

TSB = Mexican Stand Off

 

Santander = :mad2: MungyPup is coming to get yahh :mad2:

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What's Best for You?

 

 

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

 

Alliance & Leicester Moneyclaim issued 20/1/07 £225.50 full settlement received 29 January 2007

Smile £1,075.50 + interest Email request for payment 24/5/06 received £1,000.50 14/7/06 + £20 30/7/06

Yorkshire Bank Moneyclaim issued 21/6/06 £4,489.39 full settlement received 26 January 2007

:p

 

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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My question about this ruling by the fsa, is what if your mortgage was taken out before October 2004 and therefore is probably un regulated, what then. The arrears fees etc are still unfair and thus unlawful, but can you do anything about it?

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i'm reclaiming arrears fees back from my bank and 2 FOS adjudicators have said:

 

the charges are fair because:

 

1. the bank has provided a breakdown

2. i agreed to the T's and C's

3. the bank applied them because of my conduct of the account (i missed payments)

4. reg 5 and 6 of the UTCCR do not apply as i can't challenge the charges on price

5. i cannot use s.140 of CCA (unfair relationship)

6. the FSA fines on other lenders are not relevant as they haven't fined my lender

7. the test case on personal account overdraft charges said all such charges are fair

8. they're set at a market rate

9. initially they said they do not investigate arrears mortgage charges

 

and much more, but the above are the main points.

 

so how are others getting their arrears charges back through the FOS?

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This site is promoting court action by consumers to recover fees etc,this would be ok for fees misapplied but on the quantification of the fee for administering an account in arrears the borrower will be onto a hiding and liable for the lenders no doubt outrageous costs if they lose.

This course of action could be suicidal and has to be properly determined in the light of the bank charges judgement by the Supreme Court and the courts at county level now apparent adoption of this judgement which is being used as a defence by the lenders to the borrowers claims that the arrears charges being levied are unfair,excessive and not the true cost of the administration of an account in arrears.

This site appears to have sent thousands of emails urging borrowers to claim through the courts ,this could well provide a windfall for the lenders legal teams.

The particular fines on gmac and the like are particular to them,they do not apply to anyone else and cannot be used as a precedent to other lenders some of whose fees are actually higher.(particularly Acenden)

This problem is currently being debated on this thread . -.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?297005-Acenden-capstone-spml-pml-lmc-sppl/page6

 

Can the site team please respond

Edited by peterjm

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I'm not on the site team, but I will say I have never known the officials on CAG to send bulk e-mails encouraging any member or members to do anything about anything. Where did you get this particular piece of information from?

 

I have not read the thread, but all comments on CAG are an individual's opinion. That individual may be very knowledgeable or very ignorant on the subject they are commenting on. They may be qualified or they may not be qualified.

 

Any individual that takes action does so entirely at their own risk, hopefully having weighed up the pros and cons of any such action.

 

No consumer site will ever give perfect information every time, just as many solicitors often give poor information and many voluntary organisations such as the CAB can give poor information (I have been on the receiving end of this). What this site does is inform people of their rights to the best of other peoples' knowledge. Those other people, as already stated, may be well qualified to contribute or ill qualified.

 

It is entirely on this basis that this site operates, so if thousands of people are taking court action, as you seem to suggest, then they are doing so of their own free will having made a hopefully informed decision to do so. This site would be just one part of that information.

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I'm not on the site team, but I will say I have never known the officials on CAG to send bulk e-mails encouraging any member or members to do anything about anything. Where did you get this particular piece of information from?

 

I have not read the thread, but all comments on CAG are an individual's opinion. That individual may be very knowledgeable or very ignorant on the subject they are commenting on. They may be qualified or they may not be qualified.

 

Any individual that takes action does so entirely at their own risk, hopefully having weighed up the pros and cons of any such action.

 

No consumer site will ever give perfect information every time, just as many solicitors often give poor information and many voluntary organisations such as the CAB can give poor information (I have been on the receiving end of this). What this site does is inform people of their rights to the best of other peoples' knowledge. Those other people, as already stated, may be well qualified to contribute or ill qualified.

 

It is entirely on this basis that this site operates, so if thousands of people are taking court action, as you seem to suggest, then they are doing so of their own free will having made a hopefully informed decision to do so. This site would be just one part of that information.

 

THIS IS WHAT WAS RECEIVED FROM CAG IN AN EMAIL AND WAS POSTED DIRECTLY ONTO THE THREAD.

 

icon1.png Re: Acenden capstone spml pml lmc sppl

 

 

 

Just

received this in an email from CAG so am posting it here just in case anyone has overlooked it.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hot news for anyone who has suffered mortgage arrears charges, irresponsible lending or other unfair lender conduct

 

The FSA has announced large fines against DB UK Bank Limited (trading as DB Mortgages) - DeutscheBank and also against Redstone for their unfair treatment of their customers.

 

It is now completely clear that any arrears charges which exceed actual administrative costs are unfair and therefore unlawful.

 

Furthemore, irresponsible lending practices are also unfair and unlawful.

 

Additionally there are other unfair practices including unarranged counsellor visits - even if they have been attempted.

 

You are entitled to refuse counsellor visits and not incur any charges.

 

Any charges for counsellor visits must not seek to make profits. The cost of the visits must be passed on to you at cost price.

 

We are hearing stories of people being charged for counsellor visits for which there is no evidence that they were even attempted.

 

It is clear that some mortgage lenders are trying to cheat you out of your money.

You should ascertain how much has been taken from you and claim it back. The chances of winning are better than 90%. It is highly likely that the lender will attempt to avoid court action and offer you back your money.

 

However, you should ensure that you receive a proper rate of interest and this means that you should be seeking at least restitutionary damages - which would be much higher than the statutory 8%.

 

Furthermore, you should assess whether the paying of demands for unlawful excessive charges has also put you further into arrears and if this has caused you further penalties in terms of extra interest or any other prejudice. This should be claimed as well.

 

If excessive unlawful charges have resulted in your credit file being affected, then you should take this into account also when working out exactly what you want by way of remedy from the lender.

 

You should consult others on these forums when considering any offer.

 

You must not make any complaint through the Ombudsmanlink3.gif. your time will be wasted, you will wait up to 2 yrs and there will be a minimal 8% award of interest and no account will be taken of any other damage you have suffered.

 

You must make your complaint through the county courtlink3.gif for a rapid and effective remedy.

What next

 

Follow the links to the FSA website and read the four articles. Two of them are FSA summaries and two of them are the FSA final notices in the case of Deutschebank and also in the case of Redstone.

Redstone Mortgages Limited fined £630,000 for unfair treatment of some customers in arrears

FSA Final Notice: Redstone

DB Mortgages to compensate customers in arrears for unfair treatment

FSA Final Notice: DB Mortgages

 

They are not difficult to follow although Deutschebank is 20 pages and Redstone is 15 pages. It is really quite essential that you understand the FSA's reasoning in both of these decisions. It will give you a lot of confidence about what you are doing.

 

Follow any discussions on recovering mortgage arrears in the forum. If there are things that you are not certain about, then ask questions on the forum.

 

Before sending off the letter below, you should have already assembled all of your mortgage statements and be certain of the amount of money that you are reclaiming. If you have not done this, then you need to send your mortgage lender an SAR in order to find out exactly how much they have taken from you.

 

Additionally if you have been charged for counsellor visits – which either have not occurred at all – or to which you have not agreed, then you should claim that money back as well. If you have been charged anything between £50-£100 or more for counsellor visits, then it may be that those charges are unlawful because it is clear from the Redstone case that your lender is only entitled to charge the actual cost. In that case, the entire charge is invalidated – not just the excessive part. In that case you should also proceed to reclaim all of that as well.

 

You will have to bring a county court action. It is not complicated and it should not be frightening to you.

 

Do not imagine that sending the letter below is suddenly going to produce your money.Financial institutions generally have shown themselves to be greedy and stupid as well as bullying and unfair.

 

We can help you deal with them so you don't need to worry too much. However if you are simply trying to bluff them into paying you your money and you have no real intention to go to court, then do not send the letter. It will be a waste of your time. It will undermine the efforts of others who are really serious about recovering their money.

========================= === ========================= ===

Your name

Your address

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Mortgage account number
XXXXX
– request for repayment of charges

 

 

I am writing to you to request the refund of
£XXXX.XX
arrears charges which you have levied against me in respect of my account.

 

These charges had been levied against me unlawfully because they are excessive and therefore unfair.

 

I am sure that you are aware of the recent decisions by the Financial Services Authority in Deutschebank and also in Redstone. The Financial Services Authority made it very clear that mortgage arrears charges should reflect the actual cost of dealing with the arrears. It is very clear that your charges are calculated to produce a high margin of profit for you.

 

Furthermore your charges are unfair and therefore unlawful under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. Although a test case in 2009 decided that overdraft charges for personal bank accounts could not be assessed for fairness, this decision from the Supreme Court was limited to charges which form part of the core revenue of the banks. Your charges are not part of your core revenue. They are incidental to your main business and therefore they fall to be assessed for fairness. This means that they must be proportionate and that they must truly reflect your administrative costs.

 

I am prepared to sue you in the County Court if you will not repay me. If I do sue you in the County Court I shall be seeking an order for restitutionary damages and this means that you will be obliged to hand over to me all the benefit that you have had from the money that you have taken from me unlawfully.

 

If you are prepared to act quickly and to refund me my money without any trouble, then I will be prepared to accept the return of my money +8% interest which is the amount which would be awarded in normal circumstances by County Court or by the Financial
Ombudsman
link3.gif
.

 

Please note that I am not prepared to wait for your normal eight week delay. This is an industry time period which has been agreed with the FSA. I don't think that I would be prepared to accept your violations of FSA rules on one hand while you then attempt to rely on some FSA guideline on the other.

 

If I do not hear from you within 14 days of this letter then I will begin proceedings in the County Court and without any further notice.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Sign the letter (You can't imagine how many people forget!!}

========================= === ========================= ===

 

 

Particulars of Claim

 

Don't forget that there are other matters which you might want to include in your claim. For instance if you have received negative entries on your credit file which relate to unlawful charges then you should claim to have these removed as well.

Here is a template Particulars of Claim:

========================= === ========================= ===

In the XXX County Court

Claim number XXXXX

 

 

Between

 

 

XXX (claimant)

 

 

and

 

 

XXX (defendant)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Particulars of Claim

Unlawful Charges

 

  1. The claimant had a mortgage agreement with the defendant dated XXXdateXXXX concerning a secured loan of £XXXXXX
  2. The said loan is subject to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR)
  3. The defendant is statutorily bound by Financial Services Authority regulations – Mortgage: Conduct of Business rules (MCOB) contained in the FSA Handbook, implemented under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000
  4. The mortgage fell into arrears after the claimant fell into difficulty and was unable to keep up the repayments as required by the mortgage agreement.
  5. The defendant levied mortgage arrears charges against the claimant.
  6. The defendants also levied further interest upon the said unlawful charges
  7. The mortgage arrears charges were levied at a rate which exceeded their administrative costs.
  8. The level of the charges were unfair because they breach the requirement of fairness contained in UTCCR
  9. The level of the charges is also unfair because they are the result of unfair treatment by the defendant and therefore levied in breach of the defendant's statutory duty to treat their customers fairly contained in MCOB
  10. For these reasons the interest charged on the unlawful charges is also unlawful

 

Other Unfair Treatment

 

 

  1. The defendant has also levied charges in respect of counsellor visits.
  2. The said counsellor visits [did not take place as claimed by the defendant or at all]
  3. The fees for the said counsellor visits were levied at a rate which exceeded the actual costs of the visits
  4. By virtue of the above, the defendant has treated the claimant unfairly and in breach of their obligations under MCOB

 

The claimant seeks the return of unlawfully levied charges plus associated interest– £XXXXXX

 

The return of unlawfully levied counsellor visit fees – £XXXXXX

========================= === ========================= ===

Do you have a mortage arrears claim to make?

Then post your story on the forum here

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I suspect the e mail was an e mail notification of a reply to a subscribed post. The post would most likely have contained what you have posted above and thus formed part of the thread. This would mean it was a personal opinion on which people could act if they wanted.

 

Obviously I am just a normal member, but I doubt very much CAG would actively e-mail members about something of this nature. I think it is more likely that the wording, "I have just received this in an e mail from CAG..." is misleading and very poorly worded.

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The email was from an official email from the site by bankfodder I therefore posted it on our thread directly.""I have just received this in an e mail from CAGlink31.gif..." is misleading and very poorly worded.

These are my introductory words the rest is as it was sent via email,it was not a response by a cagger to something posted on the site.

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OK! I must admit I am extremely surprised, but if you received it personally, then you should know. I wonder how many others received it as I did not and as I said I haven't read the thread.

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please can someone tell me what constitutes a dispute with the lender?

Do you have to have written saying you are complaining?

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but i have been through fos and they seemed unable to help with gross misselling and deplorable charges and now about to lose my home???????????????? (next week!)

they have no poc ,no agreement on which they are bringing an action, (first mortgage ex council)????????????????????????????


'rise like lions after slumber, in unvanquishable number, shake your chains to the earth like dew, which in sleep had fall'n on you, ye are many, they are few.' Percy Byshse Shelly 1819

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Hi, you say you are about to lose your home next week - can you give me a quick recap on the background


Help us to keep on helping

Please consider making a donation, however small, if you have benefited from advice on the forums

 

 

This site is run solely on donations

 

My advice is based on my opinion and experience only. It is not to be taken as legal advice - if you are unsure you should seek professional help.

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The FOS are terrible, i've had the same irrational decisions from them regarding mortgage charges being fair in their eyes, without them actually investigating them properly.

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well, I know GE watch this site -

missold mortgage by sales person who came to house, signed up to a loan' that required purchase of council house to do it, all done by post after that, no knowledge of products, on benefits, one lender, Ocwen, need I say more........................................................................................................................................................


'rise like lions after slumber, in unvanquishable number, shake your chains to the earth like dew, which in sleep had fall'n on you, ye are many, they are few.' Percy Byshse Shelly 1819

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