Laid off before start date

[Win2Kuser]

Hi,

 

I'm writing this on behalf of my mother-in-law.

 

Basically, she was offered a job back in December 2010 at a new old persons care home as a carer. As the place had only just been built, they only had a few residents at the time, so they couldn't actually confirm a start date. They did say over the phone though that it would be soon, and reassured my M-I-L that she could leave her current job.

 

Since then, they have still not confirmed a start date, but said that they would not be able to give a start date until the CBR test had been done.

 

In the mean time, my M-I-L has sent her CBR check off (at a cost to herself of £42), but heard nothing back. She has rang the care home several times to find out what was going on, and each time, they had confirmed that she would be starting soon, and gave a date of the 16th Jan. Obviously, this date has been and gone, and their answer is that they have not as yet received the CBR report back. My M-I-L rang the CBR people last week and they said that they had never received the paperwork. My M-I-L then rang the care home to find out of they had even sent it, and was told they would look into it.

 

Today, she had a letter from the care home basically saying that due to a problem with a reference, she no longer had a job.

 

My M-I-L rang the care home to find out what was going on, but was basically fobbed off and told someone would ring back... which they never did.

 

Now, my M-I-L, is out of pocket £42 for the CBR test, and no longer has a job because she left her last job in order to take this job. Is there anything she can do?

 

Thanks in advance...

[elche]

Hi Win2K,

 

Sorry to hear about the problems with your MIL. I see 2 possibilities, (not exhaustive!)

 

 

Option One

 

If the job offer was conditional on a satisfactory CRB check then there is very probably nothing she can do ----- if said check is not satisfactory.

 

I don't know how you check exactly what they received (I recall something sent to me when I did a CRB in 2007 which may have been the same as wat teh ER got - too be honest I never checked) - As to your right to check the result of the CRB check? Other CAGGERS I'm sure know better than me, and they'll be here soon ..... like a team of Ninjas .....

 

To help them I will ask, was this enhanced or standard disclosure?

 

Option Two

 

The following is from 'Your Rights At Work' p. 15 Third Ed 2008

 

As soon as you have been offered a job and have accepted it, there is a basic legal contract between you and the employer, even if you have received nothing in writing .... if the offer is withdrawn it may be possible to sue your prospective employer, particularly if you have suffered loss because you have left your previous job...

 

The above beautifully quote,says it better, (and more succinctly) than I ever could. - If you followed this 'line' of argument, legal issues would be was there a clear 'offer' (you mention an ambiguous start date), and even if this / these exist, do we have clear 'acceptance?' - did she write / e-mail / call back to formally accept the offer of employment? -

 

This 'limb' of your claim means you would need to prove contractual formation e.g. clear offer of job, clear acceptance by MIL, all aforementioned communicated.

 

In my opinion neither option leaves you with an easy course of action. Option One surely offers almost definite loss ----- any one can remove a 'conditional' job offer if yi did not meet the conditions of that (reasonable) 'condition'.

 

Option B = probable loss (with risk of counter claim if brought in County Court but only IF over 5K claimed) - thus consider claim in ET as I suppose your claim is formulated on the creation of the contract - thus giving them jurisdiction now it is finished.

 

Even if successful in the claim ---- any award would unlikely be little more than lost notice pay (or if very lucky a months pay), potentially the CRB fee, and even this small amount will probably have to be mitigated by her e.g. she can show that she is now looking for alternate employment - (written records supper useful -

Sorry for the discertion, but it may be best to start looking at alternate employment now, and good luck to your 'suegra' in her search.

 

Hope this helps

 

CHe

[MrBlack]

Hi,

 

I'm writing this on behalf of my mother-in-law.

 

Basically, she was offered a job back in December 2010 at a new old persons care home as a carer. As the place had only just been built, they only had a few residents at the time, so they couldn't actually confirm a start date. They did say over the phone though that it would be soon, and reassured my M-I-L that she could leave her current job.

 

Since then, they have still not confirmed a start date, but said that they would not be able to give a start date until the CBR test had been done.

 

In the mean time, my M-I-L has sent her CBR check off (at a cost to herself of £42), but heard nothing back. She has rang the care home several times to find out what was going on, and each time, they had confirmed that she would be starting soon, and gave a date of the 16th Jan. Obviously, this date has been and gone, and their answer is that they have not as yet received the CBR report back. My M-I-L rang the CBR people last week and they said that they had never received the paperwork. My M-I-L then rang the care home to find out of they had even sent it, and was told they would look into it.

 

Today, she had a letter from the care home basically saying that due to a problem with a reference, she no longer had a job.

 

My M-I-L rang the care home to find out what was going on, but was basically fobbed off and told someone would ring back... which they never did.

 

Now, my M-I-L, is out of pocket £42 for the CBR test, and no longer has a job because she left her last job in order to take this job. Is there anything she can do?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

Have you spoken with your referees to establish if there was, in fact, anything negative or any problem that they had to disclose on the reference?

[SarEl]

I am afraid that I agree with elche - the first part anyway, as s/he lost me on the second bit!

 

I am somewhat confused about the CRB check, as an applicant cannot apply for their own CRB - it must be the employer, because applications must come from a registered body. But given the nature of the work described it would have to be an enhanced check, and legally an employer cannot start an employee until the check comes back, so it is likley that this was a conditional offer, which would mean that there is nothing that can be done about it.

[Win2Kuser]

Hi, thanks for your replies

 

The start date was ambiguous for sure, my MIL was offered the position, but was not given a start date at the time due to it being a new care home with only a few residents. After a few phone calls (initially accepting the position), my MIL did get a start date of 16th Jan 2011, but only verbally over a phone. It was at that point that my MIL left her previous employment, the idea being to time it so that after working notice, she would have a week break before starting the new job.

 

The CRB check is a given, and the start date quoted was subject to a satisfactory CRB check coming back. AFAIK the CRB was not sent by the care home. My MIL rang the CRB people and was told that no paperwork had been received, she then rang the care home and was told that someone would look into it. Several phone calls and a few weeks have passed, but the CRB have still not received the paperwork from the care home.

 

I can understand that the job offer would be conditional to a satisfactory CRB check, but there would have been no problem with it anyways.

 

The letter received by my MIL yesterday didn't say anything about the CRB check, it just said that due to a problem with a reference, they are no longer offering the position.

 

The only thing we can think of is that the previous employer has refused a reference probably due to the fact that they were very ****ed off that my MIL left them, plus my MIL didn't get on with the manager.

 

It's also possible that the care home got fed up with my MIL ringing them to find out what was going on. Still not the point though, in the interview she made it very clear that she was not happy at her present job and didn't get on at all well with her manager; it's no surprise that they failed to give a reference, if that is the case. At the end of the day, my MIL was offered a job, spoke to them accepting the position, and informed them that she would be leaving her old job once she was given the start date. It's only fair after being given a start date to make calls to find out where she stood, especially after that start date had been and gone!

 

You'd have thought that references would have been checked before an offer of employment was given? It's not like they were rushing to get positions filled, the original application was back in November 2010!

 

I'll tell her to ring her previous employer and find out if they did send a reference or not. Would it be worth my MIL writing to the care home saying that she is not happy and to request full information on the reasons? Would it also be worth her threatening legal action? It's a new private care home, I'm sure they wouldn't want bad publicity???

 

Thanks in advance...

[SarEl]

I doubt they'll care about the publicity - it is more likley to backfire on MIL if they turn around and say her references / CRB check were not provided! How will that look in the paper?

 

You can ask for a copy of the references received from either the care home or the old employer, but if they refuse, you will have to make a SAR to the old employer. If the reference is untrue then there may be something she can do about that - but we can't say until we know what it says. But it does seem from what you say that the offer was conditional upon the CRB check coming back - and since (for whatever reason) it had not, it was a conditional offer only, and no contract was formed. She really should not have handed in her notice until a written unconditional offer was received - and even then, there are still no guarantees. Given that, even after an unconditional offer is made, the employee has no employment protection, the employer only has to serve notice to terminate te contract quite lawfully.

[honeybee13]

'I'll tell her to ring her previous employer and find out if they did send a reference or not. Would it be worth my MIL writing to the care home saying that she is not happy and to request full information on the reasons? Would it also be worth her threatening legal action? It's a new private care home, I'm sure they wouldn't want bad publicity???'

 

I agree with SarEl, don't think your issue is with the new care home. In my view, it would be better to get to the bottom of why the references were a problem, as this could affect future job applications by your MIL.

 

My best, HB

[Win2Kuser]

Righty then, just got of the phone to my MIL, only meant to be a quick one, but 40 minutes later lol.....

 

She rang the care home today and spoke to a manager; he said that he had received 2 bad references from previous employment so because of that, they were unable to offer her employment. When push for info about the CBR check, the manager said that it was sent off, and my MIL could 'kiss his ass' if she thinks she's getting her £42 back!

 

Apparently, because of the way CBR checks work, they must be sent recorded delivery, but the CBR people have confirmed that they have not received any paperwork from the care home. The care home are adamant that they have sent it, but are unable to provide proof.

 

My MIL than rang her last 3 employers, all but the last job said that they did not send a bad reference, and said that if the care home was accusing them of doing so, they would take steps against the care home! My MIL's last employer was unable to put my MIL through to the right person because she wasn't in today.

 

Unfortunately, my MIL was unable to speak to the manager again, as 'he wasn't in today', even though she had spoken to him about an hour before hand!

 

My MIL apparently knows a couple of other people that had been offered jobs there, as they all met during an induction meeting they had last month. They too have been told the same thing i.e. bad references, so no job!

 

Something fishy going on here!

 

My MIL has made alternative arrangements for new employment, but is really ****ed off that she might have lost her £42. Is there anything she can do?

 

I'm thinking small claims court???

 

Thanks for all your info so far, might have to clock this one up as experience

[honeybee13]

Only 40 mins, you were lucky . If your MIL and the other people think the home are playing fast and loose, I believe there is an organisation that regulates them. I wonder if it might be worth contacting them? I don't know who it is, sorry.

 

My best, HB

[MrBlack]

Hi, thanks for your replies

 

 

.....You'd have thought that references would have been checked before an offer of employment was given? It's not like they were rushing to get positions filled, the original application was back in November 2010!

 

...

 

No, I don't think it's standard practice. It isn't with the NHS anyway. In my last interview late last year, I was successful at the interview and then received a letter stating "....this offer is pending the receipt of acceptable references..." or something similar to that. So I think most employers like to make the offer first and then, if they want you, have a duty to inform you of their decision (and all the unsuccessful applicants) as soon as possible and *then* request references. If they acquired references of all interviewees before the interviews then even more beautiful trees would lose their precious lives!

[Sidewinder]

If their administration is as bad as it seems it may not get anywhere, but your MIL could always send a SAR to the care home asking for sight of all documentation held, including the 'bad' references provided?

 

Won't necessarily get the £42 back, and would also cost another tenner, but for satisfaction's sake it might be interesting to see what, if anything comes back and start threatening a complaint to ICO.

 

Maybe I'm just vindictive?

[elpulpo]

If their administration is as bad as it seems it may not get anywhere, but your MIL could always send a SAR to the care home asking for sight of all documentation held, including the 'bad' references provided?

 

Won't necessarily get the £42 back, and would also cost another tenner, but for satisfaction's sake it might be interesting to see what, if anything comes back and start threatening a complaint to ICO.

 

Maybe I'm just vindictive?

Nah, probably the way to go.

[Win2Kuser]

Okay, just an update to what has been happening....

 

My MIL has now procured a new job, so that care home can, quite frankly shove it lol

 

It appears that the references problem was due to my MIL's last position as they refused to give a reference.

 

Regarding the £42 CRB fee, my MIL contacted the care home and was told that a CRB check was requested and my MIL was basically told to take a running jump if she thought she was getting her £42 back!

My MIL spoke to the CRB and they have confirmed that they have never received a request from said care home, and that if they did receive one (incase the care home got funny and DID send one now), they would reject it. So basically, the care home did not send the request and have not been charged the CRB checking fee.

 

I drafted a 'notice of action' letter and sent it on my MIL's behalf, the letter goes as follows;

 

FAO Mr xxxxxx Managing Director

RE: Balance owed by you to xxxx of £42

 

URGENT: NOTICE OF INTENDED LEGAL ACTION.

 

Dear Mr xxxxxxx,

 

I write with regard to the outstanding amount of £42 which was paid by me in cash to your company in good faith that a CRB check would be completed.

 

I have informed you that my CRB check had not been completed, and informed you on more than one occasion that the CRB themselves have confirmed they have not received the request from yourself, it is obvious therefore that you have not in fact sent the required paperwork to them.

 

In order for you to be charged the CRB fee, a request must be sent from you via Recorded Delivery and successfully entered into their systems, as this has not been done, you have not been charged the CRB fee; you are therefore unlawfully holding £42 of my money. Despite repeated requests, you have failed to refund me.

 

Please be advised that if I do not receive payment in full by 5pm Friday 25th March, I will prepare the matter for litigation by issuing a claim in the county court. If this is necessary you should be advised that I will add court fees and statutory interest at 8% per annum to the outstanding amount. Payment should be made without delay directly into my Bank Account, the details of which were sent to you via email on Monday 21st February 2011.

 

Your attention to this matter is required promptly. Please be advised that no further notice will be given.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

 

 

Mrs X

 

How does that sound, feasible?

 

Thanks for all your replies by the way, this site rocks

Edited March 14, 2011 by Win2Kuser
spolling misteak

[elpulpo]

Yep, spot on.

Very naughty of them, if they're taking money from people for supposed CRB's and then not processing them. If they're making a habit of doing so, it could be seen as fraud, perhaps? Anyone?

[honeybee13]

Yep, spot on.

Very naughty of them, if they're taking money from people for supposed CRB's and then not processing them. If they're making a habit of doing so, it could be seen as fraud, perhaps? Anyone?

 

Hasn't it been mentioned before on the forum that there is a professional organisation that covers homes like this?

 

My best, HB

[elpulpo]

There will be. Hadn't thought of that, HB.

[elche]

Hasn't it been mentioned before on the forum that there is a professional organisation that covers homes like this?

 

Is it the CQC? - http://www.cqc.org.uk/

 

I have no idea if they would help, but it cannot hurt.

[Sidewinder]

It is indeed the CQC, so might be worth making a nuisance of yourself.

 

Alternatively, and if it can be substantiated by CRB, then it could become a complaint of possible theft by fraud to the local constabulary. Ideally something in writing from CRB to confirm that no check has been requested in your name would be sufficient to warrant an investigation.

[Win2Kuser]

Thanks everyone

 

I had a look at the CQC, but it appears to be more of a regulatory thing on the actual care provided from the care homes, and not things like interview techniques etc.

I'll definitely get my MIL to ask the CRB for written proof they didn't receive a request from the care home. If he fails to pay, then that could be another tactic rather than having to file at the small claims court...

 

Just had a look on t' net at the care home, and the managing Director and his Wife basically run the show, with one other Manager, there is no other 'high rank' employees listed, and they only have one other care home.

They obviously don't worry about work law or anything as it's probably run from home.

 

Anyways, I'll keep you posted on what happens...

 

Thanks again

[elpulpo]

What you could do is send them a letter, headline it Letter Before Action.

State that you don't think that they submitted the CRB check that they took payment for, and challenge them to provide you with evidence that they did. I'd imagine that if they'd actually done so they'd be able to prove it.

State that failing provision of such evidence within 7 days, you'll make an application to the small claims court for the return of your fee.

Send it by recorded delivery.

Ont' net. You sound like you're from Gods Own County. Hope that's not Lancashire.

[Win2Kuser]

Thanks elpulpo

 

I've already sent a letter out (see a few posts above), it doesn't appear to have been delivered yet, postal strikes or something? It was posted recorded last Thursday (10th).

Apparently, due to the Data Protection Act, a CRB request must be sent recorded delivery, yet each time my MIL spoke to the manager informing him that the CRB had not received the request, he just kept saying he had sent it, but was unable to provide proof. If he really did send it, he would have clear proof of recorded delivery, unless of course their housekeeping is very poor and they lost the receipt, in which case, tough on him!

 

Nope, not from Lancashire; originally a country bumpkin living in Wiltshire oo arr, now living in Gloucestershire. Not sure where the "on t' net" came from really, just having a funny 5 minutes lol

[Atlas01]

a couple of minor things

 

Lancashire is not god's own country, it's better than that!

 

the cqc will not be interested in the op's crb issue, they would be if she had been employed without one though

 

although somewhat irrelevant, you may even find a report on the home on their website, they are an inspection and procedural testing regime and also slightly involved in the pova list (workers barred from this work area due to putting service users at risk of harm etc)

 

 

i've just had to do an enhanced one, sent off two weeks ago and i got the returned form 2 days ago, if they had sent it you'd have a copy by now (came back clean as a whistle although i'd actually disclosed a caution when i was 16/17 to the employer)

 

i'm not the kind of person to pursue for 42 quid but good luck, unless they are daft they should pay up because it will cost them more to defend it.

[Win2Kuser]

Hi Atlas01

 

Must admit, I've never been to Lancashire, I think the furthest North I've been is Oxfordshire. I've heard it's very scenic, so it is on my list of places to visit...

 

I did have a look for that care home on the CQC site, but they only have their other care home listed, the new one is not listed. Strange really as it has several residents already...

 

Yeah, I personally wouldn't go chasing £42 either, but I think my MIL is a bit short from being out of work for a while, and it's principle really. Hopefully, he'll realise the implications of having to defend it and will pay up...

 

Time will tell, the letter hasn't even got there yet! Not sure if it's the postal service, or if they are trying to deliver it before anyone gets there...

[elpulpo]

Come to Yorkshire love.

I'd go after £42. In fact I'd sue 'em for £4.20. But I'm from Yorkshire of course.

All they have to do to avoid it is either prove they submitted the CRB, or write a cheque.

[honeybee13]

Come to Yorkshire love.

I'd go after £42. In fact I'd sue 'em for £4.20. But I'm from Yorkshire of course.

All they have to do to avoid it is either prove they submitted the CRB, or write a cheque.

 

Scotsman stripped of his generosity then, Pulpo? [i have masses of Yorkshire ancestors.]

 

Another aspect of this is that they just might think twice about doing it to someone else.

 

My best, HB