Help!!! The bailiff has broken into my back garden

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Deleted - miss understood the circumstances.

 

The £100 or so 'costs' are those on the liability order - not the bailiff fees as i first thought.

 

I still stand by the fact that they can collect their (lawful) fees when they have been incurred before you settle the LO + legitimate fees to date.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Thegreenpimpernel
extra

[reallyhardup]

the council DID have the money before the bailiffs turned up. The council are now saying that the LO was a £100 more than I paid because the £100 represented their costs is getting a LO. So, in a nutshell, I've paid the council tax in full minus the council's £100 costs. The council are now saying that the £250 I've paid HAS GONE towards costs and NOT council tax.

 

In a nutshell my car is gone, I'm flat broke and will not be able to go to work, nor drop off the kids at school, can't take kids to football, no nothing -

 

my son's come home and pointed out the damage to the gate and taken it upo himself to write to Damien Hinds (I've already done that to no avail) because the bailiffs have taken HIS belongings.

Obviously, if I could paid these bastards I would have seen them off long ago but I cant. I am spending exhaustive amounts of energy on this and now the council have said that further costs will be incurred because of storage of my car and otherstuff.

[ploddertom]

 

"I note that you have made arrangements to pay Council £251.69. This is not accepted as full and final settlement of the debt owing to the Council as it does not satisfy the amounts due in law from you. In accordance with The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 the payment, when received, will be credited to the costs and charges first. Assuming your payment of £251.69 is received the balance of £103.00 will remain unpaid, in addition to the

 

 

Unfortunately it appears the answer that need to be asked was revealed in the message above from the Council, they are allocating all payments to the bailiff fees first before any outstanding amount of Council Tax. Therefore what the Bailiff was doing is correct.

 

If they do indeed intend to sell the car at auction and it is listed as a Bailiff seizure with no keys or V5 then it will only attract rock bottom price - perhaps £150 top. The intention of any levy is to force the debtor to pay up as realistically the Bailiff wants his cash and not your goods and sees having to remove anything as an inconvenience, cars are however a little different as they are easier to remove and sell.

 

The goods if removed and sold at auction should:

1 - cover all Bailiff fees

2 - cover all removal & storage fees

3 - cover the costs of the auction

4 - cover the Auctioneers fees

5 - pay something towards the debt outstanding

 

Clearly in this case it is not likely to happen and I believe the Bailiff plainly knows this and you will still have a substantial debt left if this goes ahead. It can therefore be argued that the Bailiff has made a levy solely to gain a financial advantage for himself and his Company. It can also be said you are aggrieved by the levy and you should immediately write to the Council telling them that you are going to submit a Regulation 46 Complaint to the local Magistrates Court naming the Council as defendant, you should also send a copy to the Bailiff as time is very short.

 

PT

[ploddertom]

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account. I note your Bailiff has made a Levy on a Ford Dipstick, Reg No: Z999 CAR. However I wish you to note that the value of this car if taken for sale at auction would raise at most £2-50. As you doubtless know any goods seized for sale at auction must cover the bailiff costs, removal costs, all auction costs and a proprtion of the debt I owe.

 

The above being confirmed by the Judgement of Throssell v Leeds City Council where the judge states:

as for your car how old is it? I.E. would the sale of it actually cover a large percentage of the bill anyway?

a vehicle should only be removed if the proceeds of sale provide that there would be a surplus available to the liability order after deductions for the bailiff fees, , removal storages and auctioneers fees.

 

As this clearly does not cover all these costs I put it to you that your Bailiff has a Levy that makes a financial gain for both him/herself and your Company. This is contrary to the

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

[ploddertom]

Mr Jo Blogs

1, High Street

Anytow

Post Code.

 

The Chief Clerk

xxxx Magistrates Court

 

Date:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Council Ref: xxxxxx

 

I am writing to request that you issue a Summons against xxxxxxx Council by virtue of Regulation 46 Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regs 1992 as a matter of urgency.

 

 

I am aggrieved by the levy carried out by Mr Smith of ABC Certificated Bailiffs on (enter date) for the following reason:

 

* The Bailiff visited my premises and he has provided a Notice of Seizure of Goods & Inventory advising me that he has levied against a vehicle that was outside/on the drive of my home.

* This vehicle is not owned by me. I do not know the owner of the vehicle and it would appear that the Bailiff has assumed that this is my car because it was parked close to my home.

* The Bailiff in seizing this vehicle, has charged me a levy fee of £50 together with an enforcement fee of £150 and I am advised that unless I pay the amount of the Laibility Order of £xxx together with the charges associated with this levy, that the Bailiff will be attending at my property to remove this vehicle to satisy my Council Tax arreas and in addition I will also be liable for further charges for "attending to remove" and I could also be in position of being personally liable to the owner of the vehicle.

* I have written to the Bailiff Company and the local authority concerning this levy but my complaints have been ignored.

 

I trust that this information will be sufficient and please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.

Yours faithfully"

[reallyhardup]

My 13 year old son had a response from Damien Hinds our local MP. He said get in touch with the CAB (at least he got a response. I, however, did not).

 

Here is an email I received from Waverley, I know I've lost my car. This means I've also lost my temp job and my kids won't go to school for a while.... is there ANYTHING I can do... I'm really skint... Although I kept reminding him that the amout I paid was for council tax alone, he insists that I've paid fees....

 

Dear

 

Thank you for your e-mails dated 2 February.

 

As you are aware, your payment of £251.69 has been credited to the enforcement's fees in accordance with regulation 52(4) of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

 

The liability order granted to the Council on 22 July 2010 is in the sum of £354.69. The bailiff has been instructed to enforce payment of the unpaid liability order and the enforcement charges, hence the removal of your motor car and its impending sale at auction unless the outstanding debt is paid in full.

 

Schedule 5 of the regulations does not comment on the total level of fees that may be incurred by a debtor when a liability order is enforced. A number of the fees are a percentage of the sum owing or fixed sums while the charges for a bailiff attending are required to be reasonable. If you wish to challenge the fees you may apply at your own expense to have them taxed in the County Court.

 

You will note from regulation 45 (1) that the costs incurred in enforcing a liability order may be recovered by distress and the sale of goods. If you are aggrieved by the levy you may appeal to the Magistrates ' Court at your own expense under regulation 46. There is no requirement for the bailiff to separate the enforcement charges and pursue them through the County Court.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Simon Piper

Principal Revenues Officer

 

[dx100uk]

oh i think that wrong - very wrong.

 

dx

[reallyhardup]

does he mean the outstanding LO or ALL of EVERYTHING.... there's no way I can do it... really no way. During the last 2 days I 've been attending to my Will and left everything absolutely to my son M (I've hardly got anything anyway but its all his on trust until he is 18 to be held by my son's old school headmistress in Kingston called Mrs C. - these people are pushing me from pillar to post and I'm already unwell with acute depression.

[reallyhardup]

this is the email my boy sent to Damian Hinds

 

Dear sir

 

I am a 13 year old boy living in liphook. I go to school. On the 02/02/2011 my mums car was taken by bailiffs illegally. the bailiffs refused to acknowledge that my mum had paid the fees. We are now with out a car and the car had many of my belongings in it such as a limited edition cd of Frank Sinatra. The bailiff also came into the back garden while my mum was getting dressed and watched her get dressed which i think is unacceptable. this bailiff which was from alexander's bailiffs broke many laws; 1. he put a letter through my door giving my mum 24 hours notice in which to contact him to settle the bill of council tax which had already been paid the amount was £250. 2. he broke in to our garden causeing the gate to splinter. 3. he followed my mum to sainsbury's in his van and made rude gestures with his hand which intimidated my mum which i believe is discriminating against female subjects and my mum came home as a result of this. 4. he then came back to the house and parked outside and then no more than 1 hour before the first letter he put a letter through the door, stating that he had gone back on his word and 'removed' the car. The car has many of my own belongings in it, i will list these because i do not want these to be thrown away; 1. two water pistols. 2. 3 bags of clothes. 3. a frank sinatra limited edition cd and many other bits and bobs in the back. I believe that this bailiff has broken almost every rule in the book and many human rights laws which i do not now as i am only just 13. The car is 10 years old and is all we have got and we rely on it heavily. I would gratelty appreciate your help with this matter.

 

Please get back to me ASAP as i don't want the car to be sold.

Your faithfully

[reallyhardup]

and this is the reply from Damian Hinds.... I couldn't access it earlier as my son put a parental control on it...

 

Dear M,

Thank you for your message and I was very sorry indeed to hear of your mother’s terrible experience with the bailiffs.

It seems to me that what she needs is some expert advice and I can tell you that the Citizens Advice Bureau have a great deal of experience in dealing with just this type of situation. They have an Outreach service at the Parish Office in the Haskell Centre in Liphook on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings.

I think the Petersfield office is open on Friday mornings if you do not want to wait until next week and they are at The Old Surgery, 18 Heath Road, Petersfield. Tel. 08444 111306. There is also an office in Bordon at the Forest Community Centre, Pine Hill Road – tel. 01420 477747 – which is open Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday mornings.

I hope this is helpful and that you will get your belongings back, as well as the car given that you say your mum had already paid the council tax due.

Best wishes,

Damian

___________________________________________

Damian Hinds

MP for East Hampshire

House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA

0207 219 7057 // 01420 84122

[email protected]

[Thegreenpimpernel]

£354.69 was the LO order value, that's the amount that needed to be paid before the first bailiff visit for no fees to apply.

 

The amount payable after a first visit without levy would be £354.69 + £24.50 = £379.19, unless ALL that was paid you would incur either a second visit fee £18.00 or a levy fee approx £50, then an attendance to remove fee, then maybe another when they return again and successfully remove.

 

To be clear, if you paid £360 AFTER the first visit, you would still owe £19.19, they can return to visit or levy and so on....

 

They can even tow your car (incurring a fee of perhaps £300) and auction it, keeping £319.19 (£19.19 remaining debt + £300 removal fee)+ storage + auction costs towards the debt.

 

It sucks, but that's how it works.

 

Reallyhardup - You may have lost your car, but that's the worst over with. This will be a distant memory one day....

 

But please keep posting, we may be able to get some fees removed after close examination, that might open the window to further action, but all at a time and pace you are happy with.

Like i say, the worst has happened, for you - they will get theirs another time.

Just think what some well placed cheap CCTV cameras could do for this chap's career.....

 

PM me his name.

 

People are working on things:wink:

[reallyhardup]

Greenpimpernel, his name is a Mr T Cooper of Alexander's (I've checked he's registered and he is) of Westmead Houe, Sutton, Surrey -

 

I havent quite got my head around the figures yet (its early morning) but thank you for working it out for me - my head is so fuddled right now.

[brassnecked]

Greenpimpernel, his name is a Mr T Cooper of Alexander's (I've checked he's registered and he is) of Westmead Houe, Sutton, Surrey -

 

I havent quite got my head around the figures yet (its early morning) but thank you for working it out for me - my head is so fuddled right now.

 

I would edit the post to remove the full name of the obnoxious greedy bailiff, to say a Mr TC of the bailiff company, and remove details of his exact location,

 

This info is best in a PM.

 

Excellent action by your son BTW, i hope the MP goes on and does his job and uses this to ask serious questions about the use of distress, and it's attendant fees on the debt, on low income families.

 

I won't holld my breath though Good luck and I hope you get this sorted with the excellent help on this forum.

[reallyhardup]

Hello - my depression has got so bad now, mostly because of this, that I'm now seeing a psychotherapist - so I can at least talk to someone - she phoned a lawyer and he said that Councils can often "negotiate" how much they will accept to return to my car (apparently, a bit like the "poll tax" - i wasn't very aware when that mallarky was going on ) -

 

It is quite clear from my correspondence with Waverley that he simply WILL NOT address the issue of costs - every time I ask him about costs he continues to FAIL to address the EXACT amount. This is evident in 2 letters he has written to me ... he simply says "... and bailiffs costs ...". he knows that the costs are disproportionate to the amount owed but he just detracts from answering the question. He keeps going on about me applying to the court for the costs to be taxed. He simply fails to "get a grip" on the fact that Waverley have instructed the bailiffs and the bailiffs are acting as agents for Waverley so, ultimately, it surely must be Waverley who decides what costs can be adminsitered.?????

 

Currently, as per my psycho, I asked Waverley what was the minimum amount they required and they simply said get in touch with the bailiffs b....... well, I attach all the emails going to and fro....

 

My question is, shall I apply t the court for a summons as previously suggested so I can show how the bailiffs have acted uneasonably (incidentally, my landlord has noticed the back gate has a huge chunk missing...... I obviously pleaded ignorance...and the neighbours have informed her that "dodgy" people have been round..... I've now been served notice to quit etc.,etc.,) or what on earth shall I do?

 

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Alexander's bailiffs

 

please see copy correspondence.

 

How much do you "legally" require to return my car - my children are not at school, I am not at work nor am I at college and I would pleased if we could resolve this matter so my family can return to normal.

 

 

To:

Subject: RE: Council tax account: 12449105

From: [email protected]

Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 16:01:57 +0000

 

Dear

 

Thanks for your e-mail.

 

I suggest you contact Alexander's for the exact amount required as Waverley does not necessarily know all of the charges that are being accrued. I suggest you contact the bailiff's office on [email protected] or telephone 0208 661 2515 between 10.00 am and 4.00 pm.

 

Yours sincerely

Simon Piper

Principal Revenues Officer

 

Direct line: 01483 523104

 

 

 

From: r

To:

Date: 07/02/2011 15:18

Subject: RE: Council tax account: 12449105

 

 

 

Dear Mr Piper

 

Can you please tell me what is the minimum amount you require to return my car.

 

Thank you

R

 

To:

Subject: RE: Council tax account: 12449105

From: [email protected]

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 14:42:31 +0000

Dear

Thank you for your e-mails dated 2 February.

As you are aware, your payment of £251.69 has been credited to the enforcement's fees in accordance with regulation 52(4) of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

The liability order granted to the Council on 22 July 2010 is in the sum of £354.69. The bailiff has been instructed to enforce payment of the unpaid liability order and the enforcement charges, hence the removal of your motor car and its impending sale at auction unless the outstanding debt is paid in full.

Schedule 5 of the regulations does not comment on the total level of fees that may be incurred by a debtor when a liability order is enforced. A number of the fees are a percentage of the sum owing or fixed sums while the charges for a bailiff attending are required to be reasonable. If you wish to challenge the fees you may apply at your own expense to have them taxed in the County Court.

You will note from regulation 45 (1) that the costs incurred in enforcing a liability order may be recovered by distress and the sale of goods. If you are aggrieved by the levy you may appeal to the Magistrates ' Court at your own expense under regulation 46. There is no requirement for the bailiff to separate the enforcement charges and pursue them through the County Court.

Yours sincerely

Simon Piper

Principal Revenues Officer

 

Direct line: 01483 523104

 

 

From:

To:

Date: 02/02/2011 12:04

Subject: RE: Council tax account: 12449105

 

 

Dear Mr Piper

 

Your bailiff contiues to come to the property pursuing the amount of £866.19 even though the council tax of £251.69 has been paid. They are obviously acting on your instruction and as you will know that under Regulation 45 Schedule 5 of the Council Tax Administration and Enforcement Regulations do not allow for fees of this amount. You are fully responsible for the bailiff's actions. You will be aware that he cannot use a Liability Order to pursue me for costs and it is he who must make an application through the small claims court for these fees.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Please note that all correspondence is being copied in to Mary Orton, Director of Waverley

 

To:

Subject: Council tax account: 12449105

From: [email protected]

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:37:34 +0000

 

Dear Ms S

 

Thank you for your letter dated 24 January received today in reply to my letter dated 15 December 2010.

 

I note that you have made arrangements to pay Waverley £251.69. This is not accepted as full and final settlement of the debt owing to the Council as it does not satisfy the amounts due in law from you. In accordance with The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 the payment, when received, will be credited to the costs and charges first. Assuming your payment of £251.69 is received the balance of £103.00 will remain unpaid, in addition to the bailiff's fees.

 

The bailiff's fees have been incurred as a consequence of your not paying the council tax owing to Waverley and I explained in my letter dated 15 December the actions taken by Waverley prior to the bailiff attending. If you wish to challenge the level of the bailiff's fees you may apply to have them taxed by the county court.

 

In the meantime I expect the bailiff to continue to enforce the liability order dated 22 July 2010. I urge you to settle the debt in full with the bailiff immediately in order to prevent the bailiff's fees increasing further.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Simon Piper

Principal Revenues Officer

 

Direct line: 01483 523104

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