Council tax / walking possession order

[morsy]

A bailiff turned up I ignore the door bell unless i'm expecting someone. (I'm disabled and people call me first before calling round or they have a key). I had no idea who it was anyway.

 

Then a letter was pushed through the door which turn out to be a walking possession order. The bailiff went and looked over the back garden fence and list anything he could see.

 

Sure this cant be legal?

 

Can a balif list thing in your garden fornt or back (I have an 8ft sold fence around the back coz of the dog / the front is open drive way) without gaining entry to the property first?

[brassnecked]

WHow much is the order for? and do you receive benefits, like Incapacity, or ESA and DLA, ?, and as you are disabled you are likely vulnerable under the guidelines for enforcement. If you are on inciome based bensfits you should be in receipt of some Council Tax benefit/ Housing benefit if you rent

[morsy]

Council tax

 

The disabled bit aside

 

Can a bailif list things in your garden fornt or back without gaining entry to the property first?

[shakenup]

He can write them down by all means, but he cannot list them as seized or give you a WPO without you signing it, I believe.

[brassnecked]

They probably could list them, but there would have to be sufficient value in the goods to pay his fees, the removal, auction fees and a proportion of the debt. They like to levy on cars if they can also. if you check the stickys there is a fair bit on there

[Guest jsa12]

well if its screwed to to the wall their not allowed to remove it as its a fixture or fitting,a walk in posession order is just that a householder either leaves a window open they can climb in or fall for some dubious story and let them walk in and sign such a document.hence keep them outside and they have to return the warrant unsatisfied.and never sign anything or let them in.

 

most people dont have anything of real value in their gardens anyway.so its doubtful if it will include the stone bird bath and table/feeder exe.

 

the problem with council tax if the debt goes above £750 they may attempt to bankrupt you,are you sure your not entitled to any council tax benefit relief and claiming all that you should be.

[morsy]

I get IS, IB, DLA and my car is taxed as disabled so they cant touch that and its parked on my driveway which is mt front garden. So to touch it they would have to trespass.

 

This is for an old property (over 10 years ago). I think its for about £200 or £300 is owed.

 

The goods lists are garden orniments not woth anything. I've not signed anything either.... the document says they canenter my house to sezie the goods

 

I get full council tax now maybe thats how they found me?

[brassnecked]

I get IS, IB, DLA and my car is taxed as disabled so they cant touch that and its parked on my driveway which is mt front garden. So to touch it they would have to trespass.

 

This is for an old property (over 10 years ago). I think its for about £200 or £300 is owed.

 

The goods lists are garden orniments not woth anything. I've not signed anything either.... the document says they canenter my house to sezie the goods

 

I get full council tax now maybe thats how they found me?

 

You are most likely classed as vulnerable, and being in receipt of benefits, bailiff action may well be inappropriate. contact the council and tell them this as deduction from benefit is the preferred option, adding bailiff fees to someone on benefits is an obnoxious proceedure. I would check with the council when and for what address the Liability Order was obtained.

 

Others will likely be along who know more.

Edited January 25, 2011 by brassnecked
grammar

[Guest jsa12]

you need to contact the council as above.they cannot just break in its not a court fine or should they "just stuff" a walk in possession order through the door letterbox they must have had prior access to do so and then would to avoid any later redress would seek a signature, and such a move would be nothing more then intimidatory,given a disabled person and in this situation is unacceptable behavior.

[ploddertom]

You need to remind the Council of your status, if you are in receipt of CTB then they already know your circumstances and should never have put this out to the Bailiff in the first place. Send an email off tonight to CEO of the Council and copy in Head of Revenues, for good measure make sure your local Councillor and Leader of the Council are notified also.

 

PT

[brassnecked]

morsy I agree with ploddertom, get onto the council by email as suggested ASAP if you don't know who your councillor is, try here http://www.writetothem.com/ where you can find your councillor and MP contact details.

[morsy]

Thanks for the advise .... I belive they have also applied £30 fee for the visit

 

My concern is if they come back and try to gain entry and call the police and they let them in think they have a vaild walking possesion order, or is this an intimidation taktic?

 

Most peopple will have things out in the garden i.e. table chairs, bird feeder, orniments etc peering over the fence or threw a crack and listing what you can see surly must be ilegal? Suprised they did not list the dog, but hey hes a rescue so he not my sole property plus he'd eat them!

 

I know they can climb over the fence into your garden to enter the building if a window is open. Mine all have locks on them so I can lock them shut or open slighly for ventilation so they cant get in.

 

I'll see what the council have to say on this one tomorrow

[ploddertom]

Thanks for the advise .... I belive they have also applied £30 fee for the visit

 

My concern is if they come back and try to gain entry and call the police and they let them in think they have a vaild walking possesion order, or is this an intimidation taktic?

 

They have so far not gained peaceful entry to your home so any threat of forced entry is just that - they cannot do it. They want you to sign the WPA in order that they can charge an extra fee - £12-00.

 

Most peopple will have things out in the garden i.e. table chairs, bird feeder, orniments etc peering over the fence or threw a crack and listing what you can see surly must be ilegal? Suprised they did not list the dog, but hey hes a rescue so he not my sole property plus he'd eat them! This may be something of a grey area and I would argue his levy is invalid as he he has not gained access to seize them, he is allowed to climb your fence providing he causes no damage and if there are clear signs there is a dog on the premises then that is his look out - after all how are you supposed to know he was coming!

 

I know they can climb over the fence into your garden to enter the building if a window is open. Mine all have locks on them so I can lock them shut or open slighly for ventilation so they cant get in.

 

I'll see what the council have to say on this one tomorrow

The Council will be argumentative and refuse to take it back, this is what those at the bottom are told to do, you need to be further up the food chain and don't take no for an answer.

 

 

PT

[brassnecked]

make sure you email the CEO and councillor, as well If they have an outsoursced front desk, you could be in a Capita/Equita type scenario so will have to push this upstairs. Whixh council ios it?

[lordsugar]

With regards to seizure of goods the normal rule is the bailiff has to be able to touch it. So looking over the fence would be deemed satisfactory,however this levy does not give him the right of entry as you have been advised he has not made peaceful entry so he cannot force entry and the police would only attend to prevent a breach of the peace. Goods screwed down can be removed it is common practice to remove wall mounted televisions. Goods deemed to be fittings are kitchen cabinets, doors, fireplaces,windows etc ....

 

It is highly unlikely that he council will bankrupt you as there has been a change in policy since the new goverment came in and obviously it would cost the council and they probably have bigger fish to bankrupt.If you vehicle is motability or on finance they cannot seize it.

 

The other point to note is that the guidelines state that just because somebody may be classed as vunerable it doesnt mean they are suffering hardship but clamping a vehicle belonging to a disabled person should be avoided.

 

What you should consider doing is contacting the council direct and ask them to do an attatchment to your ESA it will be deducted at source at a low amount.

[morsy]

OK contacted the council they referd me to the Bailifs but I asked to speak to a supervisor or Manger as the Bailifs can't answer these questions and they refered me to the council. I've not phoned the bailifs but yet I got the answers I think I need.

 

Ok its for the last property I lived in, which I paid in full in feb 1999. The period they charged was for end July 98 when I moved in to March 99 however I had a 6 months tenancy and was given notice to terminate (Nov 98 ) at the end of the 6 months as the owner wanted to sell, I move out begining of Jan 99 and the property remained empty till sold. The council obtained a liability order for the whole period 7/98 to 3/99 and sent all the paper work to the old address. The payment I made in Feb was via telephone banking BACS payment in Feb 99 the council recived this but said it was return 4 days later they have no idea they say its a Direct Debit paymrnt (I never use DD). I contacted my bank they dont hold record back that far and say a BACS payment once left can not be recalled. so were did this money go?

 

The fact that the amount they say I owe was for a longer period then I lived there, the council say if I can prove when I moved out they will adjust the amont owed. Howerver as they recived my payment I've over paid them any way. Is the liability order vaild as it for the wrong amont owed / period?

 

I can see this one getting interesting!

 

On the note of the Bailifs thing I expained about the WPO and the alleged levy on goods in the garden, the council say its vaild and the Bailifs can come back and take them. I pointed out the value of the goods listed at new was only £60 and now the wooden table n chairs are rotten and worth nothing they not likly to get £30 for all the item listed which is what they have charged me. Plus hte fact I have not signed anything and they have not entered the property.

 

She said she would check with colluages and the Bailifs firm, she just phone back saying it is vaild I asked by what satute / athority? The reply from the council manger - the Bailifs - made me chuckle any way. I said I dont quite think it works like that and I dispute the vailidity of the WPO. She said shes made notes

 

BTW I have truecall so it all recorded.

 

I willl dig out the evideance of the move and sent it to them. After that correction the council claims £98.99 plus £21.00 costs (119.99) that I owe ... put I've over paid them by £138.01 (feb 99 payment made, return by council, that I never recived that back).

 

They have also taken an overpayment from my current property £16.23 to pay of the money owed. Leaving 103.76 to pay

 

They want £5 a month form Jan 2011 to clear the £103.76 they say is owe based on my benifits (IS / IB)

 

If I agree to the payments they will take the account back from the Bailifs, what then happpens to the bailifs charges?

 

What should I do?

Edited January 26, 2011 by morsy

[brassnecked]

If they have overcharged you for the previous addrfess and then gained a liability order , they may be on a sticky wicket, glad you have recorded the call as it may well be useful later, bailiffs seem to make it up as they go along with collusion from the council.

 

Others will be able to advise further

Edited January 26, 2011 by brassnecked

[morsy]

bump

[ploddertom]

In my opinion you are on the right track but will need to dig up as much evidence as you can when you moved. This may be from the next property you moved into. I assume when you did move you notified the Council. As for the payment that has gone missing it will not be the first time this has been allocated to another department within a Council, they should investigate this.

 

The Council are obviously talking out of their derrieres re the levy. If it was not for the fact it was so serious I would ring them up and tell them you are aggrieved by the Bailiffs levy and will be making a Regulation 46 Complaint at the Magistrates Court naming the Council as Defendant. This should make them sit up and take note.

 

PT

[lordsugar]

Bearing in mind they have offered to take the account back i would accept this and start paying the fiver it will stop the bailiffs attending, just ask the council if they will be quashing the bailiff fees and ask for it in writing. At least this will buy you some time whilst you olan your next step.

[morsy]

Thanks for all your help / advice.

 

I've agreed to pay £5 a month so they have taken the account back.

I have asked the council to investigate where my payment has gone to, they say they returned the money back to the account it came from, but I would notice an exta £230+ in my account. Lets see what their investigation show up.

 

Anything I can do about the liability order as its for the wrong amount, its for more than I owe and for a period longer than I was resident there.

 

I have faxed the council the letter giving me notice to quit the tenancy which I recieved from the agency. Plus details from my new property that I moved in to. The council have accepted this and are amending the account.

 

The agency I rented from should have informed then and I also sent letters out at the time (untilites phone etc) asi didn't trust the agenct.

[ploddertom]

If you were not liable for the time they claim they must also abolish any & all charges associated with this ie the costs of the Liability Order.

 

PT

[morsy]

If you were not liable for the time they claim they must also abolish any & all charges associated with this ie the costs of the Liability Order.

 

PT

 

So does that mean if they charge me for 10 momths and I lived there for 6 months in the same tax year and owe some of the 6 months council tax they must abolish any & all charges associated with this ie the costs of the Liability Order?

 

Because they are insisting I pay their costs for the Liability Order?

[ploddertom]

Sorry may not have made myself clear. If they had a LO solely for the time you had moved out then there would be no charges they could apply. However if that time covered partly the time you lived there then yes you would be liable to pay it.

 

Example

Council obtained LO for Jan - March & you had moved in Dec then no charge payable.

Council obtained LO for Jan - March & you moved in Feb then yes you would pay the cost of obtaining the LO but outstanding CT would only be for the time you were resident.

 

Hope that sorts it.

 

PT

[morsy]

thanks for the clarity .... so I need a copy of the libaility order too see whats on it

Edited January 28, 2011 by morsy