Cabot/Morgans claimform - 2 debts cap1 card + Barclaycard - *** Settled on F&FS ***

[consumeredge]

If 3 upcoming cases could be found where the defendants are willing to work together, the evidence to lay before the court would then be that Cabot use a systamatic approach to to circumnavigate Civil procedure, the Northampton County Court Bulk Centre rules on disclosure and the defndants Local Courts, Simogee might be willing to be party to this as defendants will have to name other cases for the court to provide case law upon which they can rule from.

[toymaker1]

How then can this be challenged then do you think toymaker1?

 

That is a very good question, to which I do not know the answer.

The fact remains that the description you have posted of the methods used by Cabot to pursue their claim against you is exactly the same as every other claim pursued by cabot, if you examine posts about Cabot Claims over several years, and in my own experience.

They create a template for all their Particular of Claim forms, along the lines of "despite demands for payment, 15,000 remains due". - and the courts accept such a claim. Astonishing ! - particularly in light of the fact that Practice Direction 3A paragraph 1.4(1) gives an example of a claim which should be struck out, for example "money owed £5000"

A typical Cabot claim is usually worse than the example given in PD3A, in that Cabot usually dont even identify the currency of the "money owed", but just give a number, with no currency identification. - crazy or what?

So far as I am concerned, it is a reflection that the civil court system is not fit for purpose - but I dont know what you do about it.

[heathrow]

I wonder whether a complaint to the Chief Lord Justice at the Dept of Justice might get some headway but I doubt it. I have written to them before when Jack Straw was in charge as Minister and didn't even get a reply despite sending several letters. I saw my MP about it to but he wasn't really interested apart from saying an all party committee were invetigating DCAs or so I thought.

 

Your idea sounds good consumeredge. Do you have any contact details or links to others? The first step might be to put in a formal complaint to each of the courts involved in these cases as a joint entity and see if it gets anywhere. OFT might also be an a route to follow. What do you think?

[toymaker1]

I wonder whether a complaint to the Chief Lord Justice at the Dept of Justice might get some headway but I doubt it. I have written to them before when Jack Straw was in charge as Minister and didn't even get a reply despite sending several letters. I saw my MP about it to but he wasn't really interested apart from saying an all party committee were invetigating DCAs or so I thought.

 

Your idea sounds good consumeredge. Do you have any contact details or links to others? The first step might be to put in a formal complaint to each of the courts involved in these cases as a joint entity and see if it gets anywhere. OFT might also be an a route to follow. What do you think?

 

I think the only answer will be for a defendant to a claim by Cabot to make a stand against these dodgy practices, in a case where they totally know they are in the right in their particular defence against Cabot, and force the court to address those issues. - for example to make a stand on the matter of the claimant combining two unrelated claims so as to represent them as appearing to be one claim. - that is totally outside the rules of court, and is therefore totally open to being challenged.

I think an example is the way that pub landlady stood up to Sky satellite TV, and has eventually won. She had a clear and firm knowledge that she was in the right, and had the courage and tenacity to take it all the way to the european court, despite losing in the UK courts, and potential costs of £200,00. I think that is the only way. - lawyers are not challenging these things in court, - they seem to go along with these dubious practices, so they just continue.

[heathrow]

Is there anyone else out there who we know is facing one of these claims who could make contact?

 

Does anyone also have any advice on dealing with this?

 

We must remember that many County Court judges are solicitors who have been promoted through the system and we are very much at their mercy and because they are expected to deal with a wide range of cases and complicated rules they often rule by the seat of their pants rather than on what is legally correct. This is terrible and should not be the case.I did win a case some years ago when the Claimant was unable to produce the CCA. The judge initially adjourned the case to give them time to find it but on advice I wrote to the court and said that I felt the judge had made an error and quoted the relevant part of the Consumer Credir Act regarding CCAs and got the case dismissed. One small victory.

[heathrow]

I am wondering at loud here. I think I should request SAR from Morgans/Cabot as I have no idea what they hold on me or how they arrive at their POC without them providing any evidence to this end. It is also conceivable that I if they can prove ownership of any accounts relating to me I may well have also been wrongly sold PPI on one or both of these accounts. Any opinions please?

[consumeredge]

I would suggest a new thread be started titled Cabot Witness Statements, then explain in the first post what is trying to be acheived, current defendants are needed who have been issued with a summons by Cabot through the NCCBC pre August 2011 in order to firstly build a profile of Cabot's practices towards the defendant when a defence is submitted and the claim is subsequently moved to be heard in the defendants local court, Cabot state all correspondance and telephone calls up to litigation, then blank out all entries from the date the summons is issued, this is information the court is unaware of masking Cabot and Morgans refusal to disclose documents until standard disclosure or ordered by the court to do so.

 

Cabot paint an picture to the court they have made numerous telephone call, then sent letters with no reply.

 

This goes against the overiding objective to be transparent, clearly identify the issues and seek settlement using the correct protocals without the need of litigation

 

Initially what is needed are copies of Cabot's witness statements together with the name of the court and importantly the name of the litigation assistant who signed it, personal details can be omitted

[toymaker1]

I am wondering at loud here. I think I should request SAR from Morgans/Cabot as I have no idea what they hold on me or how they arrive at their POC without them providing any evidence to this end. It is also conceivable that I if they can prove ownership of any accounts relating to me I may well have also been wrongly sold PPI on one or both of these accounts. Any opinions please?

 

It would be useful if you could post up the following information;

1.

What is the basis of the claim against you , e.g. what is actually written in the Particulars of Claim box on the claim form which was served on you by Cabot.

2.

have you received the witness statement/s from Cabot, and does it/do they contain any actual evidence against you - e.g. does it provide any evidence that you have wilfully defaulted in you repayments.

3. Are there any documents held by Cabot relating to any matter/dispute before the date they bought the account from the original creditors? - that is to say documents in plain English, not computer data.

 

4. Have you filed your Defence yet?

 

This could be very very useful information for anyone wishing to advise you further.

Edited February 26, 2012 by toymaker1
extra point made

[heathrow]

Consumeredge ... this sounds a good idea. Sorry if this is a bit naive but how do I begin a new thread?

 

Toymaker1 ... I think the POC has already been posted early in this thread but if not I'll post it again, but essentially it just states I owe £xxxx on two different accounts and as usual they have failed to offer any evidence. It might as well be the Man on the Moon saying I owe them the amounts claimed. I have not had a witness statement from them, just the bundle of papers referred to previously that really could apply to anyone as there is nothing specific apart from naming me on the computer data for calls etc. I believe I have to file my bundle of papers by the end of the week but I'll check this as it is getting quite confusing.

 

I am also trying to find some legislation that may make it illegal to lump to unrelated accounts together as one case. Does anyone know of any?

[toymaker1]

I am also trying to find some legislation that may make it illegal to lump to unrelated accounts together as one case. Does anyone know of any?

 

IMO you dont need legislation, you just need the Rules of Court - The Civil Procedure Rules. - you can download them. To combine two un related claims together to represent them to be one claim, when they are actually two unrelated claims, is totally outside the rules of court. That is to say, there is no rule of court which provides for two unrelated claims to be joined together by a claimant, so as to appear to be one claim. Unbelievable as it may seem, Cabot do it all the time, and the courts and lawyers never challenge it. - For example, it needs a judge to ask counsel for the claimant "under which rule of court have these two claims been represented to appear as if they are one claim?" - there is no answer to such a question, because it is totally outside the rules of court.

The rules provide that two claims can be heard during the same hearing, but they are still dealt with as two claims, not one claim, so, for example, you might win on one claim and lose on the other. - if it is improperly represented as being one claim, you just win or lose that single claim.

[heathrow]

Thanks again. This is most useful. It certainly seems a point I can use as part of my defence.

[heathrow]

Hi fellow caggers ... I am starting this new thread to encourage everyone who is concerned about the methods used by Cabot/Morgans in dealing with any claims being made against them. From my own experience and those already posted on this site, it appears that Cabots are blatantly disregarding court rules and correct procedure with vague claimns and POCs that are extremely vague and are not supported by evidence. They are attempting to bully inexperienced defendants into submission using fear and by refusing to provide supporting evidenceunder and disclosures under CPR requests. What concerns me the most is that the courts appear to be disregarding these antics by allowing the cases to proceed to court on flimsy evidence. In most of these cases the courtds award judgement to the Claimant.

 

As I understood it, the County Court system was meant to simplify processes so that the layperson who cannot afford legal representation, can feel comfortable conducting their own defence. However, in practice this is far from the case and many defendant's are being given short shrift by hostile judges who, in many cases are ruling against the defendant simply because they are are the 'Defendant' and without the Claimant proving their case. In such cases it seems that Morgans are relying a standard form of attack that is not supported by any appropriate documentation. In other cases they are combining more than one acount into a single claim that is difficult to defend and may not even be legal. Many members are reporting a marked lack of patience by judges who, at times are refusing to even read the Defendant's witness statements and unfairly take the side of Morgans in cases that do not follow correct procedures.

 

By exhanging information hopefully we may be able make some positive headway in defending these spurious actions and by putting pressure on the courts to throw out spurious claims. If you have had or are having any dealings with these companies please support this thread by posting your experiences ... but beware as it is highly likely what we say is being monitored.

[heathrow]

I have posted a new thread titled 'Cabot Witness Statements' as recommended.

[rebel11]

Thread has been moved to the correct forum.

[heathrow]

It appears nobody has contributed to this thread ... or am I looking in the wrong place?

[Boltmaker]

s

Send them a CPUTR request for information this seems to shut them up

[heathrow]

Sorry Bootmaker ... I may be naive but what is a CPUTR request?

[42man]

I think he means a CPR31.14 request...

[heathrow]

Thanks 42man, I have already done this (twice0 and they claim they have sent me the items requested but strange as it seems ... I have not received them. I have complained to the court but they have ignored my letter and indeed they have also ignored the fact that I have complained about Morgans not complying with CPR procedures. I guess the next route will be to try and get a court application forcing them to comply?

 

My case can be followed at:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?284954-Cabot-Morgans-Claim-form-received

[cymruambyth]

s

Send them a CPUTR request for information this seems to shut them up

 

You need to get in before Cabot start court action with a CPUTR (Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations) request. This has been known to stop them.........

[heathrow]

Thanks cymruambyth

 

I'll certainly look into this.

 

Meanwhile I have a few questions regarding documentation attached to Morgans witness statement that I have now received if anyone is able to respond please?

 

1) Are they allowed under court procedure to attach documents to their witness statement that were not included in the 'exchange of documents' bundle?

2) Are the credit card 'conditions' required to carry a date of issue? I would haver thought so as they could have been contrived at any time.

3) If the credit card conditions do not provide a clause that states they have the right to sell a debt on ... does the law allow them to do this? Again, I would think not!

4) Similarly, Morgans claim that when a debt is assigned they are permitted under the agreement (they do not state whether this is theirs with the particular credit card or my original agrrement with the credit card issuer) to continue adding interest from the date they take on the debt until court procedings are issued which, in my case is 12%. (but they don't state whether this is per month, per year or what!)

Once more, this seems highly dubious and is I feel a point to challenge them on.

5) One of the two credit cards involved with this case have missold me PPI that has not been returned as well as adding excessive (£20) penalty and late charges to the balance. I had written to the credit card company about this but they failed to respond.

 

As I only have a few days to prepare my witness statement I would appreciate any urgent help anyone can provide. Thanks.

[heathrow]

Is there anyone out there that can help with my last post please?

 

I'd feel harassment could enter the equation because in 18 months, on one account alone Cabot called me 338 times ... almost daily, sometimes several times a day and by their own admission, according to their computer log, they have also spoken to third parties. Calling this number of times must constitute a breach of the Consumer Credit Act and the Harassment laws but I am currently looking into this at the moment.

[heathrow]

My time is running out to send my WS and I need to get it into the post by Wednesday latest.

[cymruambyth]

Hi, from my limited knowledge, any documents that they want to refer to must be included in the documents exchange and cannot be added. You have a PM

[catquest]

As for 2) no there doesn't have to be a date, it is for you to prove that the T&Cs can't be the original ones ( see eg the interesting case of Kotecha v Phoenix Recoveries )

 

The interest of 12% is I believe the maximum allowed in cases like this.