I have £62k debts down from £67k - i've been on DMP for 20mts with CCCS.

[EveOwes]

Thanks for your replies. I read Sequencie's blogs and found this, eventually (I read all the blogs and the linked documents):

 

"A charging order can only be applied for where a court judgment has already determined that a debtor owes money to the creditor, and payment under that judgment is not forthcoming. " from the OFT papers. Does this mean that if I continue with the DMP then I should be left alone?

 

So, do you guys think I should keep quiet about my redundancy for now? My annual review with CCCS is due end July/beg August.

 

I agree with what you're saying about being careful and making sure that any agreement not to chase remaining debt is in writing. I also will not complete the income and assets form MBNA sent to me. I will just write back and see if they will accept 40%. Fortunately, my brother will scrutinise everything before signing any cheques. It would be nice to get rid of some of these debts even if I still have some remaining - I have 12 creditors in total. I just am concerned that MBNA mentioned the property at all in their form - the more amunition they have the more they can come after me. Yet I've been straight with all of them.

 

As long as I continue to make the agreed DMP payments then I hope they will not do anything else. But I'm worried about not having a job now. I will try and get some work while my business is growing, but it's an uncertain future. My debt as it currently stands will take 10 years to pay off, and that's assuming I can continue to find the £500 a month I currently pay.

 

Does anyone know of any stats on the use of charging orders and stuff? There are stats on reposessions but I haven't seen any on charging orders. And how long do these take to go through the courts? I'm hoping I can sell quickly so they can't get their hands on the equity. I'm not trying to duck out of my debts just trying to avoid letting these ruin the rest of my life.

 

thanks

[EveOwes]

and what is a negative marker? I don't really want to apply for any more credit anyway, but it would be good to have a chance to remortgage myself rather than hope my daughter can get a mortgage - I think the max we would need is about £60k, although we will aim for nothing on credit. I know partial settlement won't look great on my CRA files - is this what a neg marker is?

[EveOwes]

Sorry to be a pain. Just rereading the replies above and both said 'partial settlement is not what I want etc'. Why not if it gets rid of the debt - if I have that protection in writing?

thanks

[PriorityOne]

Sorry to be a pain. Just rereading the replies above and both said 'partial settlement is not what I want etc'. Why not if it gets rid of the debt - if I have that protection in writing?

thanks

 

What you want are the words Full & Final. Despite what they might tell you, a partial settlement is just that; partial ... and it gives room for the remainder to be sold to someone else. So they are right in the sense that they won't chase you.... because the remainder will just be sold to some other company who will.

 

Please can you list all outstanding debts.... the dates they were taken out; which company you are currently paying for each and whether you have any CCJs (County Court Judgements).

 

Charging Orders are only granted after a CCJ... and after that CCJ has been defaulted upon... so if you don't have any and haven't defaulted on your payment arrangements, stop worrying about getting any.

 

[EveOwes]

Hi

I owe the following:

&More (M&S) £9,500

Tesco £5,870

Barclaycard £6,800

First Direct £6,100 (secured - they insisted and as they own my mortgage I felt I had to go along with it!!) - didn't write to them about settlement

NatWest £2,800

MBNA £10,000 approx (made up of two debts of £7,000 and £3,000)

Santander/Abbey £2,840

Lloyds £2,700

Capital One £2,200

Amex £2,380

Sainsbury's £6,150 personal loan

 

Letter from MBNA says (extracts):

We may be able to consider a partial settlement.... if I fill in form and provide them with updated Income, Asset and Expenditure.

A partial settlement will register with CRAs for six years.

Upon receipt and clearance of a specified payment, we confirm your account will be closed and no further action will be taken to recover the remaining balance.

If amount agreed and I don't pay by the due date, then a default will be registered, then debt may be sold to a third party.

 

So, the letter isn't really clear I guess, which is why I came straight to the forum for advice - I don't feel very confident about all this, and I expect that some of the other creditors may send similar letters if they respond at all.

 

I have no CCJs. I always paid all my creditors on time for years, but when I realised I was getting deeper and deeper into debt because I couldn't afford to service all the debts, I stopped payments to all at the same time and went straight onto DMP with CCCS. Almost all creditors have frozen interest. Sains still charge me some, and First Direct charge me some. Barclaycard charged me for two years then suddenly refunded me £1,000 of interest a couple of months ago.

 

I was relieved to hear that without a CCJ I am unlikely to get a charging order, although I thought creditors always had that right regardless of whether DMP is defaulted on??

 

thanks

[EveOwes]

forgot to add:

Amex - paying Amex but liaise via Resolva who I think are part of Amex

All the others I'm still paying direct to the original creditor

[PriorityOne]

There's a procedure to go through for a creditor to be successful in getting a CO.... and you are nowhere near that scenario.

 

Although you've approached this admirably, I have to ask.... are you comfortable paying £500 a month on these accounts, or did you get "persuaded" into it? it seems a huge amount to pay bearing in mind that you need to live at the same time.

 

Re. MBNA.... you need to ask yourself why they're willing to offer a partial settlement and not a full and final one. Don't be fooled into thinking that a full and final means you need to pay the full amount; it doesn't. It's just full and final based upon what you agree (in writing) at the time. The beauty of a F&F is the last part of that term; FINAL.

 

[EveOwes]

CCCS determined what I should be paying each month based on my income. They didn't really allow me much leeway on this and 'strong-armed' me to increase the amount at each review. I started out paying £450. They keep telling me I need to stop doing this or that etc. I've included mortgage capital in my expenditure but because my daughter was unemployed for a while I've been using that capital to meet her bills too, simply because I didn't want her going through the same agg that I've been through. Luckily, her bills are not all credit related. She's had a couple of jobs since but is now unemployed again. She needs to get something more perm so she can apply for a mortgage which we will both pay - if we need one that is.

 

Hence I'm downsiziing and hoping to buy a small property big enough for us with the equity. But I can't pay my creditors and buy a home.

 

MBNA - I think they always go for partial?? I had a letter from them two years ago offering me a partial - like now - but they made the first move etc. At the time though I had no access to cash and couldn't accept the offer. That was around 40% at the time. I'm only doing this now because my brother has offered to help. He suggested finding out what is the principal amount I owe and offer them that. He thought it would be around 50% of the debt, but if I hadn't missed any payments before giong 'belly up' and there's no PPI or late payment fees etc, then it's likely to be all principal.

 

I don't know, it's just a mess.

 

I can't imagine how CCCS are going to react when they learn of my redundancy. I will not under any circumstances offer my redundancy money in part payment of these debts because that is my lifeline for paying the mortgage, but something in my head tells me I shouldn't really be using this resource to keep paying creditors and pretend nothing's happened. Thing is, CCCS have been very tough with me. Not all of them, but the last couple of advisers have been. So big brother is very kindly offering some help. He hasn't said how much but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it if need be. He knows the extent of the debt and would have said so if he could only help with one or two of them.

 

It's so depressing.

[PriorityOne]

Once you realise that CCCS are funded by the finance industry, their behaviour becomes understandable. This tends to come as a surprise to most people.... Yes, they are there to "help you" repay what you owe but in a manner that suits where their funding comes from, rather than Jo Bloggs.

 

If this amount is too much for you each month, you can reduce it and manage your own DMP when CCCS kick you out of theirs; which they probably will when you can't maintain the monthly amount they deem "suitable". I can't make this decision for you; it has to be your own but many people on here (including myself) have managed their own DMPs for years. In fact, I'd not even heard of DMP companies like CCCS at the beginning of my journey out of debt.

 

Your priority debts are your mortgage and utility bills. Nothing else. Do not put these CCCS-managed debts over and above what you need to survive. If you are already in a DMP, the chances are that these companies will have defaulted you already, which will make it hard for you to get another mortgage. If your monthly outgoing to these companies were reduced, would you be able to stay put in your current property?

 

Don't mention your redundancy to CCCS.... I would seriously consider ditching them. You certainly don't need "advice" and intimidation like that.

[EveOwes]

Thanks PriorityOne. If I decided to manage my DMP alone, then the creditors would need to know my financial position anyway - although hopefully I will be earning something by then. So I would either need to get another job (not easy when you're as old as the dinosaurs!) or tell creditors about my redundancy. Then what would they do?

 

I do need to sell the house. Mortgage is £140k and I have only 10 years to pay it off. I'm currently paying interest monthly and using the capital to make ends meet. My monthly bills including mortgage and DMP come to £1,800 which is ridiculous. In theory I should have been able to manage but that's not the reality - all the costs keep going up. I started smoking six years ago due to stress at work (hadn't smoked since my 20's) but CCCS won't allow me to do that, so that's a hidden cost. I want to quit but easier said than done.

 

When I sell the house, I am going to put the money into my daughter's name or half mine half hers - or something like that depending on legal advice. I just want to keep creditors away from my house. But I want to be mortgage free, that way I can then focus only on the creditors debts. Not trying to rob them, just want to regain some control over the whole situation. They must have known that I was overly indebted when they kept providing me with new cards etc. They should be made to put a warning on the 'packet' to the effect that "using credit cards to supplement income will lead people into a spiral of debt unless they can pay off in total each month". I know I'm to blame for spending the money, but they are as much to blame for letting me have access to it.

 

Anyway, if I continue to pay them from my redundancy, then I will need to set a time limit before I tell them the truth. I need to set aside at least one year's or so mortgage payment as I'm sure I can sell within a year. My head's spinning from thinking about all this. I can't sleep or concentrate on anything. I wake up some days wondering what is the point of it all. But I force myself to snap out of these moods. Hence the need to regain some control.

 

Thanks for your advice.

[Muffintop]

Charging Orders are only granted after a CCJ... and after that CCJ has been defaulted upon... so if you don't have any and haven't defaulted on your payment arrangements, stop worrying about getting any.

 

Is that correct? even in a business debt I am in a similiar position and learning a lot from this thread.. I also didnt realise that a partial settlment meant it could come back and bite you on ass.. as far as credit ratings go, I get mine regularly from experian since the bank cca's .. defaults all over it but think its only a ccj that would hinder a mortgage app with a non priority lender. subbed to this

 

[Muffintop]

In post 6 you mention OFT papers is there something in this about best practice surrounding charging orders?

[PriorityOne]

Business debts are not my area, so I can only assume the same applied re. CCJs and Charging Orders unless a debt was secured on property in the first place... in which case, a CO is already in place, so to speak.

[EveOwes]

Muffintop: I read a number of papers on Seq's blogs and I've just reread much of them but cannot find the bit I found before. Now I think I'm going mad - sorry. Maybe it was the BBA code of conduct and not OFT??? I read it somewhere because I cut and pasted it into my post.

 

So, are you guys saying that I should not touch the partial agreement? If MBNA won't budge on it, then that's it. No change. Or should I write back and tell them I'm unemployed at present and this is as good as it's going to get for a while and insist on the F&F? Just a thought. My backbone isn't that strong though and will probably just try writing once more to see if they will budge. I will say my brother won't go for partial and so no deal. What if they word it so that it clearly states they nor any of their associates won't pursue? My credit is screwed anyway so having a partial on file for six years is probably no worse than having F&F agreed - but fully satisfied is better than partially satisfied I agree.

 

thanks for your help. I guess the above questions are probably my last on the matter as I must be driving you all nuts by now.

[EveOwes]

Unless Priority you have any strategies I should perhaps follow - reading your red print it sounds like you know how to handle these people.

[Muffintop]

Press releases 2010 -

 

 

OFT acts on concerns about charging orders

 

119/10 22 November 2010

The OFT has imposed requirements on Alliance and Leicester Personal Finance Limited, American Express Services Europe Limited, HFC Bank Limited (part of the HSBC Group) and Welcome Financial Services Limited (part of Cattles plc) to address concerns about the way some consumer debts are enforced.

A charging order is a court order that places a 'charge' on a debtor's property, turning unpaid, unsecured judgment debts into secured debts. This means that once any prior ranking charges on the property have been settled, the debt must be paid back out of the available proceeds of sale when the debtor sells the property. A creditor who has obtained a charging order can also apply to the court for an order requiring the property to be sold sooner but this only happens in a minority of cases.

Charging orders are a legitimate way to secure and ultimately recoup unpaid debts, however, a recent investigation by the OFT found problems with the way some lenders use them.

Problems uncovered by the OFT's investigation were specific to each business, as set out in the individual requirements, but across the sector they include a failure to consider the customer's circumstances or proportionality before asking the court to put a charging order in place; not building adequate checks into the lender's decision-making process; and also applying substantial charges for referring cases to a debt collection agency. In a minority of cases, lenders sent oppressive and/or misleading correspondence.

The four companies subject to today's announcement have co-operated fully with the OFT during the investigation and have each made changes to address the specific problems identified within their business, as set out in the requirements. The OFT is working to ensure that the whole banking industry uses charging orders and other debt enforcement tools responsibly.

Ray Watson, the OFT's Director of Consumer Credit, said:

'Our investigation uncovered instances of charging orders being used to secure debts of less than £600. Lenders are entitled to use charging orders but must do so proportionately. Where we consider the use of charging orders to be unfair or oppressive we will take action to protect consumers.'

NOTES

1. Download the requirements imposed on each firm:
    
   - Alliance and Leicester Personal Finance (pdf 87kb)
   - American Express Services Europe (pdf 62kb)
   - HFC Bank (pdf 71kb)
   - Welcome Financial Services (pdf 85kb)
   
2. A charging order is one of a number of enforcement methods available to creditors to ensure that judgment debts are satisfied. A charging order can only be applied for where a court judgment has already determined that a debtor owes money to the creditor, and payment under that judgment is not forthcoming.
   
3. Once a charging order is obtained, a 'charge' is placed on the asset specified in the order. This will usually be the debtor's property. When the debtor decides to sell the property, once any prior ranking charges on it have been satisfied, the amount due is repaid out of the proceeds. Charging orders do not require debtors to sell their property. However, the creditor can make a further application to the court requesting that an order should be granted to enable the property to be sold sooner to repay the debt. This is called an 'order for sale'. Such orders only tend to be granted in a small proportion of cases.
   
4. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (CCA), businesses that offer goods or services on credit or lend money or are involved in activities relating to credit or hire must be licensed by the OFT. The OFT has a duty to protect the interests of consumers by monitoring the fitness of those holding or applying for licences.
   
5. Under the CCA, where it is dissatisfied with any matter in connection with a business, a proposal to carry on a business or any other conduct by a licensee, associate or former associate, the OFT may impose 'requirements' on the licensee. Requirements may require a business to do or not to do (or to cease doing) anything specified for the purposes connected with addressing the OFT's dissatisfaction, or securing that matters of the same or a similar kind do not arise.
   
6. A breach of a requirement can lead to a maximum fine of £50,000 per breach and/or be grounds for revocation of a consumer credit licence.
   

 

Hi found it thanks for heads up, the applying of a CO needs to be proportionate ie the amount has to be an amount proportionate to this request and also they need to have not been underhand in applying for one... in my case I believe that they have been snakey about it and tricked us into it and tried to make us sign for one making us believe if we dont the outcome would be so much worse.... I will be using this as apart of our case in court that they solicitor for the lloyds were not open and transparent with us but instead tried to frighten us into signing paperwork. Next step see what OFT say I guess

[baz1986]

Have to agree with the posts on going it alone, CCCS are great for getting everythng set up and acting on your behalf, So it worked out great for me as i used them to set my payments and equally, but after a dispute they told me that they could not continue to act on my behalf, So up to now i still pay all my creditors through standing orders..

[Muffintop]

IMHO Its a battle of wits and not disclosing your full hand if you dont have to.

[PriorityOne]

Thanks PriorityOne. If I decided to manage my DMP alone, then the creditors would need to know my financial position anyway - although hopefully I will be earning something by then. So I would either need to get another job (not easy when you're as old as the dinosaurs!) or tell creditors about my redundancy. Then what would they do? Creditors do not have an automatic right to your financial info; only a court does. This means that they only know what you tell them and it's advisable to be economical with the truth without lying.... so I would not tell them about your redundancy. For all anyone knows, you had priority debts and used this money to pay them. It's none of their business... so keep it that way...

 

I do need to sell the house. Mortgage is £140k and I have only 10 years to pay it off. I'm currently paying interest monthly and using the capital to make ends meet. This suggests that your DMP is set way too high... My monthly bills including mortgage and DMP come to £1,800 which is ridiculous. Agree... In theory I should have been able to manage but that's not the reality - all the costs keep going up. I started smoking six years ago due to stress at work (hadn't smoked since my 20's) but CCCS won't allow me to do that, so that's a hidden cost. I want to quit but easier said than done. Strange that they won't "allow" you to smoke but are ok with you spending your mortgage capital... hmmm.

 

When I sell the house, I am going to put the money into my daughter's name or half mine half hers - or something like that depending on legal advice. They won't be able to touch it if you do that, so it's a good safeguard....and once it's sold, there's nothing anyone can do to you really because there's nothing that scary to threaten you with... I just want to keep creditors away from my house. But I want to be mortgage free, that way I can then focus only on the creditors debts. Not trying to rob them, just want to regain some control over the whole situation. They must have known that I was overly indebted when they kept providing me with new cards etc. They should be made to put a warning on the 'packet' to the effect that "using credit cards to supplement income will lead people into a spiral of debt unless they can pay off in total each month". I know I'm to blame for spending the money, but they are as much to blame for letting me have access to it.

 

Anyway, if I continue to pay them from my redundancy, then I will need to set a time limit before I tell them the truth. I need to set aside at least one year's or so mortgage payment as I'm sure I can sell within a year. My head's spinning from thinking about all this. I can't sleep or concentrate on anything. I wake up some days wondering what is the point of it all. But I force myself to snap out of these moods. Hence the need to regain some control.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

What can you realistically afford each month? Once you've worked this out, write to each creditor and tell them. Don't ask; tell. It's not hard to draw up an income/expenditure sheet based on what you want them to know. If you decide to do this, you need to include mortgage capital on it; which is what you should have been paying but haven't because of cack "advice" at CCCS. If you have a current account linked to any of the companies you owe money to, you will need to open a new current account elsewhere, with no links to any of them.

 

Yes, I have dealt with many of these companies.... and have been threatened with CCJs, property charges and all sorts in the past. It's not an easy journey but once you begin to take control, your confidence will grow. I have sometimes winced at the content of some of my own letters but posted them anyway.... knowing that in the majority of cases, these companies employ complete morons who are trained in bullying tactics but have precious little else upstairs when presented with an argument.

One more thing, have nothing whatsoever to do with them on the phone.

 

 

[phoenix11]

Not sure if this helps, but if you do have any PPIs on any of the cards/loans etc depending on how useful/less they are, first of all get those refunded so they reduce the amount owed.

 

I don't think there's a problem with telling your creditors that you're redundant and (presumably) will be on JSA? Put them all on hold and ask them to back off and give you time to sort out a new DPM when you have more details of your income as you are actively seeking work etc blah blah blah.

 

I'd have said it might actually be better to not try and pay off a few of the debts just to get rid of some of them if you still have others who you cannot pay off.

 

Any agreement HAS to be full and final - as DX posts. If the word 'partial' keeps appearing, tell them to roll their own and smoke it!

[fernack]

Hi - I tried to get full and final settlement from MBNA but eventually settled for Partial settlement - just to get them off my back. This was approx 3 years ago and so far they have been true to their word and not pursued the remainder. If some other bottom feeder appears chasing the rest I will not acknowledge anything and hopefully it will become statute barred eventually ... x

[EveOwes]

Hi

 

Thanks for all the really useful advice you guys have posted. I haven't had a chance to log on all week though. During the week I received a phone call from M&S Money. The woman who called was very nice and friendly and emphatic. While talking to her, I had to keep telling myself "she's not my friend, she's not my friend.." because they try to make out they are.

 

Anyway, she said M&S would settle for 40% but they will call it a partial settlement and write off the balance - she said they won't budge on the partial thing. Anyway, I'm not doing anything until I get something in writing from them.

 

But I'll make sure I don't take any more phone calls of this nature - she caught me off guard!! When I recall the conversation the hairs on the back of my neck stand up because I just know deep down they are sneaky, even if this turned out to be totally genuine. I'll wait and see what happens.

 

With my mortgage capital - I told CCCS that my mortgage is £1,100 a month which it is. I haven't told them that my lender has allowed me to pay only interest, so I get to use the capital to meet my monthly shortfall - if I paid over the capital to the lender, I would be broke well before payday each month. Anyway, I left work yesterday for the last time and am now officially unemployed. So will need to have a complete change on the financial front sometime soon.

 

And I'm going to start being really tight with my money, as being kind and generous just leads to being broke I've discovered. Kids will now have to fend for themselves, they're both adults. Call barring is full on, and their rent will have to be paid regardless of how skint they are. I've been such a fool really.

[cymruambyth]

Re your children, you haven't been a fool, you have been a parent who cares for their family and carries on doing as much as they can whilst putting themselves second. We all do this!

 

Good luck

[EveOwes]

Hi

 

I saw a link to F&Fs (highlighted in red) which looked like it was giving advice to the creditors, telling them not to sign them and if they did they can go back on their agreement.

 

So, does this mean that all creditors are following this advice? Is there any more similar links showing what code the creditors really follow?

 

thanks

[The Mould]

Hi

 

I saw a link to F&Fs (highlighted in red) which looked like it was giving advice to the creditors, telling them not to sign them and if they did they can go back on their agreement.

 

So, does this mean that all creditors are following this advice? Is there any more similar links showing what code the creditors really follow?

 

thanks

 

Good afternoon EveOwes

 

Under the doctrine promissory estoppel, person A cannot renege on his promise given to person B if person B has acted on the promise given.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould