Advice re Rossendales friends CTAX debt

[BelstarBomb]

Hi,

 

I have just got back home from calming down a very distressed friend.

 

Earlier this evening she had a visit from one of their representatives re outstanding council tax. The demand is only in her husbands name, infact this was the second time she had seen a bailiff from Rossenddales. The first time, the agent refused to speak to her as her name wasn't on the paperwork.

 

She explained that her husband was not in and when asked when he would be back in, repled sometime tomorrow as he is away on business. They then asked could she contact him by phone to which she said no, he is on a plane.

 

She asked what it was about to be told it was about the council tax. They asked if she could pay it on his behalf. She asked how much was outstanding to be told it was £400. She queried this as she thought it was only £200 and they advised her that at the time of the first visit it was but there were other charges that had since gone on top. She asked for a breakdown of these and he simply showed her a piece of paper that said she was charged £130 for the van visit tonight, £24 for the last personal visit and she can't remember what the other amount was for but didn't give her a written breakdown as she had asked for.

 

She asked why they were being charged £130 for a van visit to be told it was because they needed it to take away their goods if she didn't pay up in full there and then. She advised them that she did not have £400 to pay but would check their bank account.

 

She left them in teh doorstep whilst she did this and went back to ask what was the minimum that they would accept. He said at least 2/3rds as long as the remainder was paid within 24 hours.

 

They have £450 to last them to the end of the month, yet because of the pressure of two men asking for meoney on her doorstep and three children screaming at her as it was tea time, she paid £300 just to get rid as she felt thatthey weren't taking no for an answer.

 

They gave her a receipt which they asked her to sign and said that they would call at 12pm tomorrow for the remainder.

 

I'm not too sure of the laws, rights and wrongs concerning bailiffs but I get the feeling she may have been suckered.

 

Has she and what are her rights and what would you suggest she does now? Did they have the right to talk, threaten and take payment from her for the council tax debt that is not in her name?

 

Thanks for your help in advance,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

urm..

 

silly thing to

 

but just as silly to say now she shouldn't of done it!

 

ok

 

contact the council in the morning

 

ask them for the amount of the liabilty order.

 

the bailiffs can only charge £42.50 [for the first two visits - £18 + £24.50]

 

if they have not gotten into the house to levy on goods or levied on an external item [say a car] they cannot charge a van fee

 

so she is being fleeced here.

 

pay then NO MORE

 

 

if there is then still money outstanding on the liability order

tell her to pay the council DIRECT by internet banking. not the bailiff

 

she now needs to write to the bailiff Co asking for a screen shot of her A/C..

 

if you read a few of the other CTAX threads you'll get the idea

 

sadly the Rossers are known for trying it on.

 

dx

siteteam

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks DX,

 

I had thought as much.

 

They did not get in her property and the car on the drive is in her name. Additionally, they had not left any other paperwork to say that there were any levies that had been made

 

The amount outstanding to the council was £200 so the other £200 was made up of Rossendales charges.

 

So should she be asking for the van fee from Rossendales back or should she put the payment into dispute with her card company and pay the £200 that was outstanding direct to the council or should she complain to the council about the van fee?

 

Thank you,

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

she could certainly try a chargeback on the card.

 

i would complain to the council direct

 

THEY ARE responsible for the actions of the bailiffs they employ

and DON'T get fobbed off that they are NOT.

 

have a read of a few treads here on the way to go

 

there is plenty of good advise & sadly, people that have had the same dispicable acts done against them as well.

 

council CEO & p'haps your MP are ones in the list.

 

esp as there were children involved & p'haps the issue of her being in the 'vunerable' catagory.

 

dx

[seanamarts]

Fire off a formal complaint to the chief executive of the council asap, you can do this by email. The council are responsible for the actions of the bailiffs, what the bailiff has done is wrong. You only owe £42.50 and thats all.

[BelstarBomb]

Hi All,

 

I called the debt collector pretending to be my friend and he ended up putting the phone down after threatening that if I/she didn't pay the outstanding he would come and seize her car and make her liable for more costs.

 

I started off by asking for a breakdown of the costs. He told me there was £42.50 for the forst two visits, the second one apparantly occurred two days after the first which is news to my friend as she was in all day and didn't answer the door to anyone or received anything through the letterbox.

 

They have also levied a charge on the vehichle as well as the £130 van fee.

 

I asked how they can levy a charge on the vehichle when it is her name and not her husbands and the council tax debt is in her husbands name. He replied as they were married the debts and assets are joint and several. I disputed this and received the first threat.

 

Wow. Just had my freind on the phone as she had the bailiff turn up on her doorstep about to put a clamp on her car:shock:

 

As it happened she was on the phone to the council and was chasing the bailiff around the car to stop him putting the clamp on and then shoved the phone in his face for him to speak to the council. Only then did his colleague stop.

 

The council told him he was being harsh as £300 had already been paid of the £400. Whilst he was talking to the council she looked at his paperwork and they had allegedly visited the property on two other occasions and levied a charge on the vehicle hence the reason - according to the council - that they could legitimately charge the £130 van fee.

 

My friend assures me that contrary to what the paperwork said, there was no letters or levy noticed pushed through the letterbox regarding the car as she would have called straight away to advise that the car was in her name not her husbands.

 

When she got back on the phone to the council they advised that for future reference a 'door opened is an invitation to come in' but as she had already paid some and agreed to pay the rest the bailiff was within his rights and suggested she paid up, which she did. They also said that it was an admin error from Rossendales as the paperwork had been sent through in joint names, they just decided to drop her name from the paperwork. Because of this and the two alleged other visits, the council have told her to formally complain to Rossendales and copy them in. It was the same bailiff that did the first three alleged visits and as my friend pointed out, it's there word against hers. The bailiff could have got all the information she needed from the first visit such as door colour, type of house, car registration etc - whose to say that she then made the subsequent visits up? That 'slip' has cost them £130.

 

How would you go about contesting that?

 

bel

[dx100uk]

time for a formal complaint then

 

you need to write to rossers and ask for a screen shot of your a/c

 

dx

[ploddertom]

Send the following to Rottendales, adapt as you need and send by email with a hard copy in the post sent by Signed For:

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

PT

[sequenci]

Hi there, I wish you all the very best of luck with this. I thought thatLegally they cannot charge for the van or the levy fee as they do not have a signed walking possession agreement from a liable party. I think I might need to research this further. Ploddertom's letter is excellent, ensure it's sent via recorded delivery.

[ploddertom]

You next need to ring the Council again and ask:

 

1 - how many Liability Orders are there

2 - how much is each one for

3 - how much is still outstanding on each

4 - what period of time it/they cover

5 - the date it was passed to the Bailiff

 

You also need to check to see if the attending Bailiff is currently Certificated and therefore legally allowed to collect the debt. This can be done from

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/

This should show you the last date it was renewed and its expiry date, it should also show the name of the Company he works for. If the Company field is left blank this means he is self-employed and if so you need to ask the Council whether they allow their Contractor to sub-contract Bailiff matters - many do not. If it shows a different Company to the one in the title of the thread then that means his Certificate is probably invalid and he cannot legally collect. It must remembered that the list is not 100% accurate so may need to ring the MOJ.

 

Had the Council ever advised they were going to take this action. This might be even just a reminder that the CT was outstanding. If the Bailiff has made an admin error then that is there problem, you may be able to plead ignorance over the jointly & severally liable argument - this is something to take up with the Council as they are wholly responsible for the actions of the Bailiffs.

 

As for no prior notification of any visits please read this - please note the contents of Para 7

http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part7

 

If you decide to go ahead with a complaint to the Council address it to the Chief Executive of the Council and mark both letter and envelope as "Formal Complaint" and if possible deliver it in person.

 

PT

Edited November 10, 2010 by ploddertom

[ploddertom]

Hi there, I wish you all the very best of luck with this. Legally they cannot charge for the van or the levy fee as they do not have a signed walking possession agreement from a liable party. Ploddertom's letter is excellent, ensure it's sent via recorded delivery.

 

Walking Possessions do not need to be signed for them to be legal. The signing by the debtor has 2 effects:

1 - they can charge a Walking Possession fee

2 - the debtor may retain control of the goods seized until such time as the debt is discharged in full, any default enables the Bailiff or distrainor to remove the said goods

 

In theory if you refuse to sign the Bailiff or distarinor has the right to remove goods immediately.

 

PT

[sequenci]

Walking Possessions do not need to be signed for them to be legal.

 

For sure. I was always under the impression (and likely to be mistaken) that associated fees couldn't be charged for without the signed WPA? Does that cover the van fee do you know?

[seanamarts]

'door opened is an invitation to come in'

What utter bollox!! No it is not. Whom ever you spoke to and told you this needs to brush up on their enforcement regulations and protocols. Bailiffs can enter through an open or unlocked door. They can however break into out houses like sheds etc.

If you open a door and refuse entry they cannot force past you and you DONT have to let them in. They cannot place a foot in the door to prevent you from shutting it. Opening a door to a bailiff IS NOT an open invitation for them to enter your property.

[BelstarBomb]

Thanks guys,

 

It appears this has got a lot of you hot under the collar.

 

My friend is coming around tomorrow to type up the letter at mine as she cannot afford a printer cartridge - not now anyway!

 

The one thing she did do however was check to see where she was on the dates that the bailiff said she had visited and on the date that she had allegedly done the levy on the car, the car had been gone all day as he had gone out all day after dropping her children off to school. She can also prove where she was all that day. So how do you challenge what the bailiff has said as far as my friend is concerned, she has lied.

 

In addition, if there is HP on the car, am I right in thinking that they cannot put a levy on it? If so, if they had done their due diligence they could have easily found this out?

 

Anyway, we will indeed get the letter off for her tomorrow.

 

Thanks again,

 

Bel

[ploddertom]

 

The one thing she did do however was check to see where she was on the dates that the bailiff said she had visited and on the date that she had allegedly done the levy on the car, the car had been gone all day as he had gone out all day after dropping her children off to school. She can also prove where she was all that day. So how do you challenge what the bailiff has said as far as my friend is concerned, she has lied. All the more reason for sending off for the breakdown

 

In addition, if there is HP on the car, am I right in thinking that they cannot put a levy on it? If so, if they had done their due diligence they could have easily found this out? It is up to your friend to inform them and prove this, if this is the case then they should ASAP send copies of the finance to the Bailiffs and ask in light of this they remove the levy fee and all associated charges.

Anyway, we will indeed get the letter off for her tomorrow.

 

Thanks again,

 

Bel

 

PT

[BelstarBomb]

Hi Guys,

 

Rottendales have written back to my friend only giving them a breakdown of the account saying that if they want the information requested such as screen shots of the accounts etc, that is a SAR and they will need to pay the £10.

 

Who is right?

 

Bel

[dx100uk]

you are

 

its not an sar

 

its your right to see this

 

no fee

 

smokescreen! me thinks you've got them worried!

 

dx

[hallowitch]

http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm

 

Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided

[BelstarBomb]

I know, that's what I said to my friend as we all believe that they behaved appallingly.

 

This is what her husband had sent to them

 

1. A printout or copy of the screen shot of our account held on your systems

2. A copy of the order sent to you from xxxx Council

3. The date and time of any Bailiff action

4. The names of the Bailiffs who attended, the date of their certification and the court that they were certified at.

5. Copies of all communication allegedly left at the above address

6. A full breakdown of all charges made to the above reference number

7. What steps were taken by you or your Bailiff to confirm ownership of the car WVXX XXX and whether or not there was finance on the car at the time of any levy applied by you.

This is not a Subject Action Request under the Data Protection Act section 7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10.

You are obliged to provide this information.

 

How exactly would you now respond to Rottendales if they are trying to stall?

 

He had sent the same letter to the council requesting the same information as well as asking what steps the council took to ensure that all fees were levied properly and legally.

 

So far, he hasn't had a response.

 

Cheers,

 

Bel

[hallowitch]

Rottendales have written back to my friend only giving them a Breakdown of the account

 

can you post this so we can see what/when charges have been added

[BelstarBomb]

Give me a min, I'll text her to text them to me

[BelstarBomb]

Hi the breakdown of charges is as follows

 

Visit 1 - £24.50

Visit 2 - £18.00

Car levy - £31

Van charge - £130

 

There arguament is that they refused to speak to her as her name wasn't on their paperwork and as far as they were concerned the debts wasn't hers. However, she is the legal owner of the car that they levied, not her husband and it has finance on it.

 

No one was present on visit 2, so there was no one available to confirm the ownership of the car. It could have been anyones that was sat on their drive as she is always having the other mothers around and then going for walks in the park with the children. She also swears blind that there was nothing pushed through the letterbox on the day of the alledged visit.

 

Bit of a stinker really.

 

Why is it not a SAR request to Rottendales when asking for similar information from a bank is?

 

Cheers,

 

Bel

[ploddertom]

Hi the breakdown of charges is as follows

 

Visit 1 - £24.50

Visit 2 - £18.00

Car levy - £31

Van charge - £130

 

I gather from the above they have made 4 visits in total. If the vehicle was present on both 1st & 2nd Visit why didn't the Bailiff levy upon it then, fair comment if it wasn't in sight. On the 3rd Visit they have made a levy on the car - do I remember you saying something about finance for it? On the 4th Visit they have issued an Attending to Remove Fee (ATR - Van Fee). Please correct me if the Visits are wrong and if so could you list the dates they were done. Please note they cannot charge a Levy Fee and Visit Fee or a Levy Fee and ATR Fee at the same time - they have to be done all on different Visits.

 

[dx100uk]

why do they need a van to collect a car that is on finance

 

doh!

 

car levy - £0!

van Charge - £0!

 

dx

[BelstarBomb]

Hi,

 

There were 4 visits in total.

 

Visit 1 - She was in but they wouldn't speak to her as her name wasn't on their paperwork.

Visit 2 - Two days later allegedly. Nothing received through letterbox

Visit 3 - 5 days after visit 2 when the levy fee levied. My friend disputes this as again, she was either in and no one called at the property or she was out in the car picking up her daughter and sone from school and nursery. Again nothing left at the property to advise that this had been done

Visit 4- as per the thread

 

Can you let me know why the informtion that she had requested from them isn't subject to a SAR?

 

Cheers,

 

bel