pcn over 3 months late

[skanky]

Any advice would help,

 

Received a pcn 3 months after the offence asking for £180 as i had not payed it now i had never received the said pcn, spoke to the council and they said they had a problem with there printer and it had not been sent out and if i payed £60 that would be it, i appealed as i thought they had to send it out within 28 days and have now had a letter saying they are rejecting my appeal, anyone know the law on this should i take it to the next stage , dont want to get stung with any court costs.

 

With thanks Skanky

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Do you have ther admission re the printer in writing - either as a letter or contemporaneous notes that you have made?

[skanky]

Hi Bernie,

 

They`ve made a full addmision of the fact that they never sent me the original pcn due to the printer error.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

And did they say anything about either a "Notice to Owner" or an "Enforcement Notice" not having been issued? Or did you get these.

The reason I ask is that it sounds like what you have is either a "Charge Certificate" or an "Order for Recovery". Can you scan wash and post what you have.

I would also suggest you make a note of the conversations (when and with whom and what said) and sign and date them if you have not already done so.

[Jamberson]

If Bernie is right, and I think he probably is, do try and get i writing exactly what they have not sent you (or, conversely, a full list of what they have sent). If you have been issued a Charge Certificate when to their knowledge you were never sent a Notice to Owner, I reckon you can have the charge quashed on the basis of impropriety. Don't tell them what you're up to though, just ask innocently for the info - maybe by email so you get an email reply.

[skanky]

Thanks Bernie and jamberson,

 

I have`nt explained it to well, the date of the offence which was going 20 meters down a one way street when i came out of a car park was 29/04/2010 the first i new of this was when i got a charge certificate on 09/08/2010 stating amount due £180 i got straight onto the phone and this is when they stated that there had been a printer error and that i could pay just £60 i refused and said i would appeal which they said i could, i appealed that , i had not been sent photographic evidence, and it had not been done within 28 days, on the 01/10/2010 i received a notice of rejection of formal representation and that i can pay £60 or appeal again but if i lose i will have to pay £120. As you can tell by the dates of offence and when they let my appeal go through they were admiting i had not received a pcn.

[green_and_mean]

As you can tell by the dates of offence and when they let my appeal go through they were admiting i had not received a pcn.

 

They are not admitting anything, they are responding to your claim you never received a PCN and offered you the opportunity to go back to the PCN stage. The alternative would have been to send you an order for recovery and get you to fill in a statutary declaration that you had no PCN and THEN take it back to the PCN stage. All they have done is avoid wasting yours and their time and accepted your word. If you can prove no PCN was sent then you should appeal on those grounds but not receiving and not being sent are not the same. Whilst I don't doubt what you are saying I find it strange they would knowingly not bother sending a PCN out Councils have hundreds of printers and if it was broken they would just print it a day or two later. If there was a printer problem in April I doubt very much there would be a note on your case file that stated 'no PCN sent as printer was broken'.

[skanky]

Hi GREEN AND MEAN,

 

The lady from the council said that there had been an printer malfunction from what i could tell there had been at least a weeks worth of pcn`s that did`nt go out, im going to phone them on monday and see if they will state it in writing for me if they do, do you think i have a good case for appeal........

[green_and_mean]

Hi GREEN AND MEAN,

 

The lady from the council said that there had been an printer malfunction from what i could tell there had been at least a weeks worth of pcn`s that did`nt go out, im going to phone them on monday and see if they will state it in writing for me if they do, do you think i have a good case for appeal........

 

If the PCN was never sent then you are in the clear if the adjudicator agrees with you. But as I said above it seems a bit odd that for an entire week no one noticed no PCNs were coming out of the printer after they pressed print especially as they would then have had to post them. If they knew the printer was not working they could have just postponned until the next week. I would suggest posting up all letters you have received and contacting the Council for clarification on why they re-issued the PCN.

[Dragons Dennis]

If you can get that 'lady' to put in writing that the PCN did not get sent out, you are as said in the clear. Without it it is simply hearsay. (And I never liked that group anyway! )

[Jamberson]

Where I live, this is the system: The NTOs are bulk-generated automatically on the computer system. They are printed and folded and placed in envelopes automatically by machine.

 

By then, the status on the account will show NTO issued on x date. If, after this, it is spotted that the NTOs are faulty, there's no way back except to manually print duplicates, which I suspect would fall foul of the regs (not 100% sure of that).

 

So I think it is feasible that a printer fault could mean the NTO was not sent and that a CC went out automatically. The computer record won't reveal this, as it will show the NTO issued as normal - that's why something is needed in writing.

[green_and_mean]

Where I live, this is the system: The NTOs are bulk-generated automatically on the computer system. They are printed and folded and placed in envelopes automatically by machine.

 

By then, the status on the account will show NTO issued on x date. If, after this, it is spotted that the NTOs are faulty, there's no way back except to manually print duplicates, which I suspect would fall foul of the regs (not 100% sure of that).

 

So I think it is feasible that a printer fault could mean the NTO was not sent and that a CC went out automatically. The computer record won't reveal this, as it will show the NTO issued as normal - that's why something is needed in writing.

 

Generally the document PCN/NTO is generated by progressing the case it is then printed, if the printer fails it will show as pending just the same as on a PC when you try to print a document. It can be reprinted the only problem would be that the date on it would be the day it has to be posted so it would need to be done the same day. Unless they are in the dark ages most Councils are networked so if the printer fails the document can be printed on another printer on the network.

[skanky]

Thanks everyone,

green and mean i dont really know what the system is in my borough barking and dagenham but i got 2 of these missed pcn`s 5 days apart, i know it sounds to you as if im trying to get out of paying but they really did not get sent out im self employed so used of getting plenty of fines one way or another, and if i cant get a letter confirming the printer error will just pay up.

[lamma]

Envelope stuffers do fail.

[lamma]

and letters do get lost

[skanky]

Spoke to a lady at the council today explained that i needed a letter stating the printer malfunction, had to wait while she spoke to her manager then told me to re-appeal to the council, now when i said surely i have to appeal to the next stage she said no re-appeal to the council. Like i said before i know for a fact that at least 1 weeks worth of pcn`s did`nt go out and i bet there`s alot of people that they`ve automaticly said no to on appeal and just the fact that im willing to take it to the next stage there hopfully going to squash them,,,,will let you know how it go`s

[Jamberson]

Ask again, in writing. Cite the data protection act and insist that they give you a full list of all items sent to you.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

The DPA is not going to be of any help getting the council to admit in writing that PCNs did not get sent out because of a printer malfunction.

 

IMHO OP should write to LA setting out the details and confirming that they have contemporaneous notes of the conversations which will be produced as evidence to the adjudicator should the LA not exercise their discretion and cancel all enforcement of and the PCNs themselves.