Bailiff ANPR vehicles

[green_and_mean]

But it's not AUTOMATIC in the case of Car Parks etc - hence NOT ANPR! Surely that concept is not too difficult to grasp?

 

Its automatic if not done by a human any software system that reads and processes vehicle registrations via CCTV is ANPR I think it is you that is not grasping the concept.

[Raykay]

The system is automatic in that it 'reads' the numberplate without any human intervention.

 

It's the use of the database or databases that it is connected to that is causing concern.

[tomtubby]

For the first point, we both know this - it was for clarificastion to the poster that TM was not doing anything useful.

 

As to the second - describing the systms that Bailiffs or Car Park enbforcers use as 'ANPR' is giving credit to technology where none exists. Police ANPR (the 'real thing') resolves the RK details and other information pulled from a comprehensive database. Bailiff ANPR has no access to the full database, just a very small sub-set of it. Car Park enforcement ANPR doesn;t even do this. Sure it recognises the plate, but nothing else. There is nothing 'automatic' about their looking up the RK details, they have to pay for it like anyone else deciding which ones to pay for an enquiry and which to disregard (like their own vehicles, for instance).

 

We're in serious dange of awarding crediibility where none exists, which is why it is flawed to call it Bailiff ANPR. It'sa like calling two musicians an 'orchestra' or a canoe a ship, sure a mobile phone these days is a computer... so why don't we call it one? Bailiff/Car Park NPR might be more accurate - as there is no point in talking up a technology that is misunderstood by most.

 

In last months edition of PARKING REVIEW there is an advertisment from Newlyn Plc. They are a large firm of bailiffs and they have many ANPR vehicles.

 

The advert is advertsising their new "Back Office System Software" otherwise called BOSS and it is described by them as follows:

 

 

"The BOSS system is designed to enable Newlyn to organise and archive data collected from our fleet of ANPR vans allowing us to monitor their every movement.

 

Our Database is automatically uploaded and deleted via 3G giving twice daily updates.

 

Each time a vehicle registration is read by the ANPR van a photo and location is automatically sent to the server enabling Newlyn to see when and where a vehicle has been located"

 

 

 

As I have said in a post yesterday, Hammersmith & Fulham Council have only just started requesting warrants of execution from the Traffic Enforcement Centre for debt registration of PCN's in 2007!!!

 

This means that ANPR vehicles operated by their newly appointed bailiff company are currently driving around London streets looking to locate a vehicle (and taking photos' of the vehicle ) that matches the number plate of a car that was being driven by the owner on the day in 2007 when he or she incurred a PCN.

 

I cannot believe that anyone reading this would not consider that this is absolute madness and the quicker that it is stopped the better.

[TasmanianDevil]

Afternoon all,

 

Nice to see that everyone likes to jump on and off topic!!! Just to add my 2 pennies worth....Both Pips and Cleartone are the major players in ANPR equipment. What happens is when a Bailiff syncs up his ANPR at the start of his day, all of the previous days "Hits" and VRM reads are removed from his ANPR PC and are transmitted to the companies back office server (BOS). This will detail the long and lat (location) of all the cars the ANPR hit. Now some Bailiff firms are more IT aware than others and some use this info and others don`t. Either way the main DPA questions here are where to they store the info, is this place secure and how long do they store the info for? Also, is EVERY member of Bailiff office staff CRB`d, reference checked going back 10 years, Experian checked for any financial problems etc as they all have possible access to this data.

 

Now GSM internet links are getting more reliable and some firms now have live links to the vans so all of this info is updated 2 way in real time. To confirm, all cases are cleansed by way of a DVLA check prior to going on the vans so the registered keepers details are also on the vans too.

 

Be advised, the two ANPR firms I mention above also supply the majority of Home Office Police Forces (I can never say Police Service!!!) and in fact, depending on the Police Unit, their kit is not as up to date as the Bailiffs. I have been involved on many a roadside op where the Met or MOD plod were using anpr that hadnt been updated in 2 weeks + as they couldnt get their kit to a Black Rat (Traffic) garage to get it updated in time

 

So to confirm...Bailiff ANPR is the same tech that is used by HO Police. Bailiff data also supplies the RK of the vehicle and data is tx (Transmitted) to BOS.

 

The key differences are what people?? Simple............

 

Police Officers don`t take ANPR home with them

HM inspectorate of Constabularies regularly monitor such use of equipment

Police Forces operate the equipment under the following header

"Accountable, Necessary and lawful" Bailiff firms, in my opinion don`t.

 

Maybe that was 5 Pence and not 2 and I am sure I will hear a cry of "What the hell does he know?" Well, I suppose 7 years in probably counts for nothing but I am happy to be shouted down guys!!

[buzby]

Of course, the Bailiff systems don't access all VRM RK's so are not comparable with the Police systems. I've not come across any police system (in Scotland) that required 'updating' - they use Airwave data for an instant lookup nothing is gewld locally.

 

However, it would appear others like to talk up the technology - but for whatever reason (other than consumer alarm) I've no idea. Assuming these firms do have access to RKs, then it is certainly possible for the BOS to note if when the offence committed, there has been a change or update to the RK, and this stops enforcement. As not to do so would then be an abuse of their powers (or a greater misuse, if you like).

 

This would permit a civil action. and I would imagine a successful one should a vehicle be taken unlawfully assuming the driver or RK had no connection with the original offence.

[TasmanianDevil]

Buzby, by jove I think you`ve got it! Yes there are errors in the process and Yes civil litigation DOES take place! This is what we are talking about (On topic). Mistakes do happen, cars are removed and money is taken from the new RK of the vehicle. Also, BLF`s ignore change of addresses on their screens, hoping to blag the debtor into still paying (Trust me I know) and again, whilst I admire your knowledge of GSM and Radio comms, I am afraid you clearly have no idea of the Met. I said a good time ago that if the Met had to be run like a business, it would have gone belly up years ago! check out the expense claims by Protection Officers of Mr Bair in today`s news. Are these PO`s running for election as MP`s???? Anyway, again, what would I know eh?

 

Also Busby, have you ever witnessed a Met PC screaming for urgent assistance whilst on a Council estate in the ****ty side of Islington? Airwave gets no TX/RX and the red button doesnt get him an answer or response from colleagues? Nice when you are single crewed and the your PR is your "Lifeline" eh Buzby.

 

Seems there are a few strange agendas on here from you guys and the proof is in the pudding rather than people trying to out geek each other.

 

Rant over.

[buzby]

At the end of the day we're on the same side. I can only go on my own experiences and whilst the Met may have its own problems, I'm sure every other force will have their variants. As for Airwave not working - heck, iot is a radio system when all is said an done. Designed and built by the team that took so long to get GSM off and running - so that should have been a warning in itself. Of course, Airwave was sold off to MacQuarrie and I don't thnk there has been all that much more investemnts, but since it is Govt money, this is in short supply, so if it ain;t working now - the chances of things improving are slim. Which probably explains why so many have back up phones on a 'traditional' mobile network.

 

Like you, civil litigation is the way forward to make these folk pay, however - a court faced with the knowledge that only the VRM was provided, then the interception will be excused as 'one of those things'. But if the system has RK and the ability to detect a change of RK but ignored it, then there is plenty of scope to call them to account. So in a strange way, you need to promote their access to full VRM data in order to hang them out to dry! 8)

[TasmanianDevil]

Well then we at last agree Buzby! "It`s good to talk" eh?

 

This is the premise for the thread I am led to believe? Clearly "Bailiff ANPR" is being abused in whatever guise you may call it. The facts and questions about it`s use are surely welcome & healthy"Accountable, lawful"etc etc are what is needed and if this affects profit`s, nobody out there will be happy to conform. As mentioned, this is not a witch hunt, merely a task of asking for a uniformed, regulated and accountable anpr system.

 

Nice chatting and enjoy the day!

[TasmanianDevil]

Well then we at last agree Buzby! "It`s good to talk" eh?

 

This is the premise for the thread I am led to believe? Clearly "Bailiff ANPR" is being abused in whatever guise you may call it. The facts and questions about it`s use are surely welcome & healthy"Accountable, lawful"etc etc are what is needed and if this affects profit`s, nobody out there will be happy to conform. As mentioned, this is not a witch hunt, merely a task of asking for a uniformed, regulated and accountable anpr system.

 

Nice chatting and enjoy the day!

[TasmanianDevil]

Well then we at last agree Buzby! "It`s good to talk" eh?

 

This is the premise for the thread I am led to believe? Clearly "Bailiff ANPR" is being abused in whatever guise you may call it. The facts and questions about it`s use are surely welcome & healthy"Accountable, lawful"etc etc are what is needed and if this affects profit`s, nobody out there will be happy to conform. As mentioned, this is not a witch hunt, merely a task of asking for a uniformed, regulated and accountable anpr system.

 

Nice chatting and enjoy the day!

[TasmanianDevil]

Well then we at last agree Buzby! "It`s good to talk" eh?

 

This is the premise for the thread I am led to believe? Clearly "Bailiff ANPR" is being abused in whatever guise you may call it. The facts and questions about it`s use are surely welcome & healthy"Accountable, lawful"etc etc are what is needed and if this affects profit`s, nobody out there will be happy to conform. As mentioned, this is not a witch hunt, merely a task of asking for a uniformed, regulated and accountable anpr system.

 

Nice chatting and enjoy the day!

[buzby]

You too!

[TasmanianDevil]

Sorry for the repeated posts all. PC problems here!!!

[green_and_mean]

Clearly "Bailiff ANPR" is being abused in whatever guise you may call it.

 

How or why is it being abused? If the keeper data is out of date it makes no difference if the car is spotted manually or by ANPR its just out of date ANPR does not make it out of date? All ANPR does is remove the need to manually check every vehicle in a street it does it by computer if the warrant is invalid it would still be invalid if a baliff spotted the vehicle manually from a list. It would be like saying driving around in a car makes it easier than walking so baliffs are abusing cars.

[TasmanianDevil]

Think I`ll just crawl back under my rock as this is too painful!! So much interest on a matter with so little knowledge wastes all of our time and I have little of it!!!

 

Good luck with your chatter people.

[pin1onu]

How or why is it being abused? If the keeper data is out of date it makes no difference if the car is spotted manually or by ANPR its just out of date ANPR does not make it out of date? All ANPR does is remove the need to manually check every vehicle in a street it does it by computer if the warrant is invalid it would still be invalid if a baliff spotted the vehicle manually from a list. It would be like saying driving around in a car makes it easier than walking so baliffs are abusing cars.

The fact that they are seeking to enforce on the street rather than at the address on the warrant is the abuse. However, IMV, a tool which makes the abuse more efficient is just as bad.

 

Lets not forget we have seen examples where the Met and GMP in conjunction with bailiffs have abused the ANPR system by running joint operations where people have been pulled over because they have outstanding de-criminalised charges. The police have been demonstrated to be acting ultra vires in these cases and is a clear case of abuse of powers.

[letsmakeamark]

Think I`ll just crawl back under my rock as this is too painful!! So much interest on a matter with so little knowledge wastes all of our time and I have little of it!!!

 

Good luck with your chatter people.

 

 

That is what bailiffs are good at. Look at what happened at jbw before their site was given free exposure. Everybody,s pictures disappeared.

[letsmakeamark]

How or why is it being abused? If the keeper data is out of date it makes no difference if the car is spotted manually or by ANPR its just out of date ANPR does not make it out of date? All ANPR does is remove the need to manually check every vehicle in a street it does it by computer if the warrant is invalid it would still be invalid if a baliff spotted the vehicle manually from a list. It would be like saying driving around in a car makes it easier than walking so baliffs are abusing cars.

 

 

Looks like you haven't got anything better to do then try and run a thread down. Go and do something environmentally friendly. Like grow some sunflowers and while you are it it dig a big hole for yourself.

[Pepe2004]

Clamped by Newlyn in dec 2013 in asupermarket car park ,,asking for £1230 ,told him how can you clamp here and not in my property address ,,replied he can paid £250 released car and now fighting for ideas to challenge 2 PCN and a letter of complaint to the council as this stinks