CEL ANPR PCN - BlZSPACE SWINDON BSS HOUSE.CHENEY MANOR ROAD. SWINDON, ENGLAND SN2 2PJ

[samj8042]

My wife dropped my daughter off at a kids party space on a trading estate and didn't think to look for signs as she parked outside the establishment.

We got a £60 (reduced early payment) fine.

Although now the signs are to be seen its a lot of money is this something we must now pay?

Attached is the notice and the signs.

Looks obvious now but when you are driving to a party warehouse on a trading estate and looking for the place itself its easy to miss this and especially when it seems logical to park there and walk in.

My wife was there for 30 minutes.

Thanks in advance

Sam         

 

2024-04-16 CEL PCN-NTK incident 2024-00-07.pdf

[jk2054]

No its not something that must be paid. 

 

Was there anyting on your windshield?

[dx100uk]

welcome....

it is NOT A FINE.....this is an extremely important point to understand

no-one bar a magistrate in a magistrates criminal court can ever fine anyone for anything.

Private Parking Tickets (speculative invoices) are NOT a criminal matter, merely a speculative contractual Civil matter

hence they can only try a speculative monetary claim via the civil county court system (which is no more a legal powers matter than what any member of Joe Public can do).

Until/unless they do raise a county court claim a CCJ and win, there are not ANY enforcement powers they can undertake other than using a DCA, whom are legally powerless and are not BAILIFFS.

Penalty Charge Notices issued by local authorities etc were decriminalised years ago - meaning they no longer can progress a claim to the magistrates court to enforce, but go directly to legal enforcement via a real BAILIFF themselves.

10'000 of people waste £m's paying private parking companies because they think they are FINES...and the media do not help either.

the more people read the above the less income this shark industry get.

.............

please complete this:

thread title updated.

dx

 

[FTMDave]

Please fill in the sticky as dx asked.

Was the kids' party inside the Bizspace area?

[samj8042]

No Windscreen PCN - it was ANPR capture..

Yes - kids party in Bizspace

[lookinforinfo]

The PCN is one of the more compliant that I have seen. however it still fails.

There is no period of parking mentioned as required by paragraph 9[2][a] . ANPR cameras only capture the arrival an departure times. It does not record the times you drove from the entrance to the parking place and then from the parking spot to the exit.

That means that if you are the keeper then you are not liable to pay the PCN. Only the driver is so do not appeal as you may reveal who was actually driving.if you were not the keeper then as long as the driver is not identified CE will have difficulty on that fact alone. The majority of people with valid motor insurance are allowed to drive your car  and Courts do not accept tha that the driver and the keeper are the same person.

On top of that your car was trespassing there since you didn't have a Permit and only the land owner can pursue you not the monkey they employ. The signage is prohibitory in that only permit holders can park there so no contract can be formed.

The signage is new apparently so there must be some time allowance for motorists to adjust to the new signs which could mean that  they shouldn't even be issuing you with a PCN.

For all those reasons I wouldn't be too much in a hurry to pay them a penny.

And well done on posting up the PCN and that sign so quickly. 

[FTMDave]

I've got some suggestions re Bizspace but can you fill in the sticky please.

We would love to help you but if you can't find two minutes to fill in the details of the disputed invoice despite three requests there's little we can do.

[samj8042]

Thanks FTMDave

yes will fill it out,

in the meantime is there some kind of letter I can send to ask them to send letters to me about the issue, it is stressing my wife a bit as we are getting continuous threatening mail now.

I am thinking of sending a letter saying I am representing the issue on her behalf therefore any further action should be taken in my name and she is now not related to the issue legally?

At what stage if any can we confront them about this being harassment? 

Many Thanks all, really appreciate this

Sam       

[dx100uk]

its not harassment, just std allowed practice.

don't go sending any silly letters , simply invites further pointless letter tennis.

had you filled out the Q&A 2 months ago when asked

this might well have been resolved by now with no more letters

but please do NOT ignore a letter Of Claim whatever you do.

dx

 

[Nicky Boy]

At a guess, your wife is the registered keeper?

That's why she's getting all the mail.

The only way to have taken her out of the loop would have been to out you as the driver on their stupid paperwork at the beginning of all this. Unfortunately, that would also have thrown away some legal protection under POFA, so it's fortunate you didn't.

You haven't uploaded any of the paperwork they've been sending, but they've probably been "adding" unlawful amounts to the invoice. Does it by any chance now stand at £170?

Also, have you been sent a "letter of claim" yet? This is something you really cannot ignore!

If you're serious about fighting this, you really NEED to start engaging with the thread properly.

Also, importantly, the forum is primarily self help... read other threads here to educate yourself on the way these things pan out.

We will offer all the help / advice needed, but it tends to be very time consuming, constantly re-explaining things.

We're all volunteers and only have so much time to devote.

[samj8042]

Sorry dont want to appear as though I dont appreciate this help by not adding more info but I work for myself and was up till 2.30 am and have to be up for school run, things are a bit like this around now

lost a fortune to covid and have to pay more money than I have to inland revenue, its all guns blazing on work front which makes this fine charge painful as I am watching every pound at the moment 

the time/work management leaves me short on my children trying to juggle life!...

posted here PDF of all letters....cant find one marked here but it would have just of been another reminder.

Let me know any more info, this covers all contact received and made.

Many Thanks All        

Docs.pdf

 

..... forgot to add you will see I requested letters be in my name but my wifes name still is on all letters.

[Nicky Boy]

Extra redaction done on your upload.

We all have our crosses to bear. Just get on with whatever you think is important... Is this important to you?

BTW, you just left this thread hanging some time ago...

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/380343-ukpcs-can-i-subtract-ticket-amount-i-did-buy-from-the-invoice-due/#comment-4624485

What happened?

It would be nice to see you following up on things. Would you like to do a final update on it?

Anyway, the advice currently is to ignore all of their stoopid letters UNLESS you get a letter of claim. (NOT the claimform... a letter of claim).Then come back here for advice on writing a suitably snotty letter.

Agaim, look at other threads.

[Homer67]

All demands and begging tripe, ignore everything except a Letter Before Claim.

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, samj8042 said:

its all guns blazing on work front which makes this fine painful as I am watching every pound at the moment 

it is NOT A FINE.

where does any of their paperwork use that word?

it is NOT A FINE.....this is an extremely important point to understand

no-one bar a magistrate in a magistrates criminal court can ever fine anyone for anything.

Private Parking Tickets (speculative invoices) are NOT a criminal matter, merely a speculative contractual Civil matter

hence they can only try a speculative monetary claim via the civil county court system (which is no more a legal powers matter than what any member of Joe Public can do).

Until/unless they do raise a county court claim a CCJ and win, there are not ANY enforcement powers they can undertake other than using a DCA, whom are legally powerless and are not BAILIFFS.

Penalty Charge Notices issued by local authorities etc were decriminalised years ago - meaning they no longer can progress a claim to the magistrates court to enforce, but go directly to legal enforcement via a real BAILIFF themselves.

10'000 of people waste £m's paying private parking companies because they think they are FINES...and the media do not help either.

the more people read the above the less income this shark industry get.

where your post said fine it now says charge

dx

 

[Nicky Boy]

I was waiting for that post dx

[lookinforinfo]

It seems surprising that the party holders would have invited people to where there was a car park that required Permits to park. Have you contacted the people who held the party to see if they had a facility for those attending the party not to require a Permit or to enter their vrm at the party to avoid the Permit problem.

Your letter to the rogues will not deter them from continuing to write to the keeper. It would have been different had you given the name and address of the driver  and please do not do that as it gives away  a strong defence point for you both.

The threats they send through the post and the unlawful demands they ask for over £100 will all count against them should they go to court. They know that Permit Holders only signs do not offer a contract to motorists so you cannot breach a contract that does not exist. 

That will not stop them sending threatening letters in the hope that you will finally crack and pay them. Probably unlikely that they will take you to Court though they may well go up to the last part-which is paying the Court fee since they know they will lose .

I know it is difficult for you both receiving these demands but we see them all the time and realise what a bunch of *************s they all are . They can't even produce a legal document properly after 12 years of practice. saya it all really.

[samj8042]

21 hours ago, Nicky Boy said:

What happened?

Eventually stopped getting letters from them, cant find an option to update that post !  

[Nicky Boy]

I've opened the thread again if you'd like to update it...

[samj8042]

but please do NOT ignore a letter Of Claim whatever you do.

What is a letter of claim, how would I identify it if I get one, thanks again  

[honeybee13]

A Letter of Claim/Action should say that in the heading of any letter. If you're not sure, post up the letter with your personal details covered up and we'll let you know.

HB

[dx100uk]

4 hours ago, samj8042 said:

What is a letter of claim, how would I identify it if I get one, thanks again  

look at a few PCNthreads here already with  PAPLOC or Letter of Claim in the title

and view the PDf file

then you'll know what one looks like

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

It's quite common in these cases that the company that called in the private parking rogues will intervene and get the ticket cancelled.

I remember looking up e-mail addresses for Bizspace ... but then you wouldn't fill in the sticky which is shorter than a page of A4 and disappeared for two months.

[samj8042]

Ok I see thanks, will post all letters as I get them here anyway

Thanks

[FTMDave]

It turns out I still have the address I looked up:  https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=c-1551904&c=Bizspace Limited Customer Service email address

So get onto Bizspace, lay it on thick about being there for a genuine reason, and ask them to get the invoice cancelled,.

Of course it would have been better to do this two months ago.

Some companies (Asda) are superb in these cases.  Some others (Iceland, McDonald's) are dreadful.  But nothing ventured ...

 

[dx100uk]

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Pdf unredacted