Sold-On Loan

[EyeSee]

Can anyone offer any advice on the legal requirements on sold-on loans? I had a loan with Direct Line and when in financial difficulties fell behind on repayments. A DD was bounced by my bank and DL didn't bother collecting for 6 months. At this point they phoned me to enquire how I intended to bring my account up to date (£3000). I explained my circumstances and that I would need to renegotiate repayments and their idea was that I should pay hundreds more each month. After a couple of telephone conversations they stopped chasing me and I got a call from another company saying they had taken on the debt and aggressively tried to maximise payments and agree a lump sum to pay it off. I am currently paying a manageable amount to them each month. However, they have never written to me regarding the APR I am paying nor the amount outstanding and this over several years. Is there any obligation on sold-on loans on their part? Should I have some kind of agreement? Because otherwise it seems an excellent [problem].

[maroondevo52]

Hello and Welcome, EyeSee.

 

I'll move this thread to a more appropriate Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[UnitedFront]

OK if this is for a loan then it is covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Any Debt Collection Agency are also obliged to carry out certain behaviour by the OFT guidelines on debt collection.

 

Could we have a bit more history of the debt please... when was it taken out? How was it taken out (over the phone/internet/in person etc..)? When was the last time you actually made a payment on the debt or made any acknowledgement in writing of the debt? Have you ever made a formal request for a copy of the credit agreement (cca request)?

 

The answers with these questions will help everyone give you the best advice.

 

Depending on your answers, I'd say the most likely advice is to send off a cca request to whatever DCA is currently chasing you for payment and use that to assess the situation and potentially put you in a stronger bargaining position.

 

If you come back with the answers to the above, I'll dig up the links to relevant templates etc to get things moving for you.

 

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

UF

[EyeSee]

The loan was taken out (in 2000) over the phone with Direct Line for £21500 at £500 per month. Later we started a business which didn't worki out so we had a number of issues not least the bank and its charges! We never noticed that the repayments were not being taken (this would have been probably 2002) and Direct Line didn't represent their Direct Debits or contact us, until 6 months had passed. We had a few telephone conversations in which we said we needed to reschedule the loan repayments and they asked for £650 or more a month. The next we knew was when Westcott phoned to say they had taken on the loan. They wanted large repayments, I said £150 a month and stuck to it, they said it would have to go up each month, but I ignored them and since then we have paid the same, but no contact from them. No statements, nothing. They did offer a couple of times a discounted settlement figure, which if we could have afforded it, we wouldn't be paying them every month. We are still paying and I haven't contacted Westcott, but I wanted to know my legal position as I anticipate trouble from any contact with these people. Hopefully this is sufficient background?

[harrassed senior]

Hi and welcome, I would suggest a CCA application Westclots;

 

Send them a CCA request to see if they are entitled to collect this debt & if it's enforcable. If they fail to provide it within 12+2 days or the CCA is unenforcable you can legally withold any payment until they do. Send it recorded delivery enclosing a £1 postal order. When you get a reply, scan it & remove any identifying details and post it back here where we can have a look at it. We'll advise you from there;

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:- Account No: XXXXXXXX/Your Reference Number: XXXXXXX

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77 will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

If you intend to send a reconstituted copy of the CCA you must declare the reason why it has been reconstituted and if the original exists and in what form (microfiche) etc

 

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

(Optional)

You should also note that I will only discuss this matter in writing and should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you or any of your associates.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance. (Optional)

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully **Edit to suit**

Print name do not sign

[UnitedFront]

Exactly as HS says above.... send that cca request and see what, if anything, they come back with..... this way you know what you're dealing with.

 

Also, if they don't come up with anything or come up with something unenforceable then that puts you in a stronger position and allows you to decide what you do!!

 

Keep us updated with any communication from them and everyone here will try and help out as and when needed.

 

All the best.

UF

[Pinky69]

I had a loan from Direct Line from that era. The paperwork was incomplete. It went to Moorcroft (another DCA), I put it into dispute and never heard anything about it again.

[EyeSee]

I now have a reply from Westcot (it took me ages to find the last communication, for a reference number, from 2005!). They say they they are not the creditor for this account but are instructed on behalf of Direct Line. The postal order was returned and they suggest we contact them direct. They did end the letter with something about putting the account on hold for 14 days while we 'make arrangements to pay the account'. We are continuing to make the payments we have for years.

 

Unless someone advises otherwise, I'll send off to Direct Line Financial Services.

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

I would write back putting the account into dispute. Letter 20 here:

 

The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

It matters not who "owns" the debt. Wescot are collecting on it therefore they should either send you your agreement or pass the request on to DL.

Send the postal order back with the letter.

[EyeSee]

Silverfox. I like the strength of the letter, but also feel it might be missing their point, so (without feeling sorry for Westcot) would it not be more appropriate to ask again first? What I am saying is that, whilst it is not unreasonable to suggest they pass on the request, it is also not unreasonable for them to point me towards Direct Line? If so though, what is the legal position of Westcot? I don't understand why DL, who wouldn't negotiate reduced payments with me, engaged Westcot, who then agreed reduced payments!. So, is Westcot actually in default of the request, by dint of time limit? The letter suggests a direct relationship and as the Clots point out, it isn't a direct link. How can I now refuse payment when they haven't 'refused' they claim it doesn't involve them and so the request is misdirected. As I say, I don't understand the Clots role.

 

I get the impression that Westcot are rattled though, as their not-so-veiled threat (that we 'make arrangements to pay the amount') was received by me as unnecessarily aggressive for a company who claim not to be involved!

[silverfox1961]

If you have a look at the red paragraph in this CCA request, it spells out the requirements of a DCA to pass on your request.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

 

Either way, it's up to you what you do. Send the request to DL or make Wescot do what they are supposed to do

[EyeSee]

Yes, I noticed that when I re-read the letter. Doesn't seem any more work for them to pass my request on than to write back to me. I think I'll go with your suggestion. It seemed a bit nuclear, but they do p*ss me about! It was just a simple request that they chose to ignore. Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

[UnitedFront]

They are absolutely required to pass on your request - as the letter states; if they are simply acting as an agent collecting they debt then they are required to pass on your request, if they are acting as a purchaser of the benefit under common law equitable assignment then the same rule applies and, finally, if they have bought the debt under an absolute assignment then they have purchased the rights as well as the obligations - as the letter points out.

 

This is a common ploy adopted by DCA's which is, in my opinion, nothing short of an in-vain attempt to frustrate proceedings, confuse the alleged debtor, and circumnavigate the rule of law!! I would send the in dispute letter; in my opinion, if you have proof that your request was delivered and the letter returning your postal order then they have voluntarily returned this and the statutory time limit for them to comply with your request began on the day that your request was delivered!!!

 

All the best and keep us posted.

 

Cheers

UF.

[EyeSee]

Westcot sent the Postal Order back a second time saying they merely collect on the loan and to contact Direct Line, direct for the original documents.

[silverfox1961]

Time to report the muppets.

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

 

You could also have a chat with your MP.

[EyeSee]

Latest update. After contacting Consumer Direct, local Trading Standards have just called. Their advice was that, should it go to court a judge would take a dim view on my having not contacted Direct Line myself, rather than relying on Westcot. As an aside, during the conversation I said this all arose when I was having difficulty paying the loan and I was told that Direct Line have no obligation to help me, or negotiate repayments as I have a legally binding agreement. Not what I thought! Also, he felt that the fact that Westcot have never sent a statement in all the years they having been taking payments was 'not very good'. Overall then, I am to contact Direct Line.

[ScarletPimpernel]

You could send a letter to Direct Line combining a CCA request with a formal complaint about the actions of their agent Westcot, for whose actions they are responsible under the OFT Guidance.

 

At the same time, send a letter to Westcot making clear that as they have refused to comply with their legal obligation you will now deal with DL direct and will not enter into any further correspondence with them.

[EyeSee]

I sent the letter (suitably altered as they are not a debt collection agency) on the 7th and haven't heard anything from them up to today, which is 14 days. What to do now? I haven't told Westcot anything more as yet, because they told me to go to DL, so I guess they know what is going on, but I do need to do so now. They are calling every day currently.

[coledog]

Hi

 

It is 14 plus 2 working days - so not quite up yet. Presume you sent recorded so you can check receipt here:

http://track.royalmail.com/portal/rm/trackresults?catId=22700601&pageId=trt_rmresultspage&keyname=ePOD4_track&_requestid=126033

 

If you do not receive anything in the next week - you can send the Account in Dispute letter which I can find a link to with a copy to Westcott with a very stern covering letter telling them to go away. I would also suggest you send them the Telephone Harrassment letter amended to say that they are ringing about an account that is in dispute with DL.

 

Account in Dispute letter

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

 

Telephone Harrassment

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/52-harassment/135--harassment-by-telephone-response-letter-

[silverfox1961]

Hi

 

It is 14 plus 2 working days - so not quite up yet. Presume you sent recorded so you can check receipt here:

http://track.royalmail.com/portal/rm/trackresults?catId=22700601&pageId=trt_rmresultspage&keyname=ePOD4_track&_requestid=126033

 

If you do not receive anything in the next week - you can send the Account in Dispute letter which I can find a link to with a copy to Westcott with a very stern covering letter telling them to go away. I would also suggest you send them the Telephone Harrassment letter amended to say that they are ringing about an account that is in dispute with DL.

 

Account in Dispute letter

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

 

Telephone Harrassment

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/52-harassment/135--harassment-by-telephone-response-letter-

 

Hi Coledog. It is in fact 12+2 days to respond not the 14 you mentioned. A lot of people do get confused when others post up 14 days instead of 12+2

[coledog]

Sorry - senior moment! It is 12 + 2 but I don't think it is quite long enough yet.

[EyeSee]

Well I make it 12 working days today and bingo, the paperwork arrives! What I have is a single page 'Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Signature Copy'. This has been signed by both sides. They have also sent a five page document 'Direct Line Personal Loans Terms and Conditions'. You spoke previously about putting them up on the site, but what exactly? All six pages? There is a 'Financials' page too, but that relates to the sum, the interest, the total and my income and expenditure -so not relevant?

 

There is also a payment history, that doesn't accord with my recollection at times but I don't have bank statements going back to 2003. Also I will have to see if I can check on July 09, when a regular £150 payment shows as £1.50.

[coledog]

Link to using 'PhotoBucket' - if you can scan or photograph them then update ensuring that you edit out all person details using the tools.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?115-How-to-open-a-PhotoBucket-account-and-use-it-to-post-pictures-on-the-Consumer-Action-Group

[EyeSee]

 

These are the first two pages, I have all the other 'standard' pages if you want them too. (Lord knows if I've done this right!)

Edited September 23, 2010 by EyeSee

[EyeSee]

Whoops had to edit above try again