Credit Ref Agency reply to DPA s.12 request-help please

[SurlyBonds]

Perhaps we should lodge a search on the G.A.I.N. (gone away information network) on Experians Site:razz:

 

or should it be a CIFAS marker for Mr Jones...????

 

Cocky Individual Flees Argument Suddenly...

 

I especially liked the bits from his later posts... now what were some of those illuminating insights into the mind of such a mature and respected character...let me see...

"We also go beyond the letter of the law as we are a responsible and reputable business"... ROFLMAO...Yeah, that's why about 99% of the population thinks the CRAs suck

"In fact, we are currently UK business of the year"...now come on... buying the judges a few rounds of golf does not a silk purse make.

"I said that we go beyond the letter of the law in they way we run our business..."... Erm, and that would be how....exactly?? some examples? Hmm? Pretty please? Ever heard of the 'spirit of the Law' too?

 

"CCJs are kept on the public record (and therefore on a credit report) for six years and I think that became the accepted industry standard (with regulator approval) for retaining other financial records too."...erm, Nononononononononononooooooooooooooo, he didn't actually say that, and still doesn't... and anyway, regulator 'approval' doesn't equal diddly in a Court.

 

"O ye of little faith."...well James, with people like you working for Experian that never actually answer the punters' questions, do you really expect us to have any faith in your agency?

 

Still, if you walk into the sheep pen, dressed as a wolf, you should expect more than just a little bleating back at you.

[ppauls150]

SB you are total quality and worth a read five times over your comments I was just thinking dont know if it has been mentioned before but not that it should matter as they shouldn't be processing our data anyway with or without a contract if it has ended, but when you ask the company concerned for a copy of your Credit Agreement which is what the CRAs say that we give the right under that agreement to process our data to them, and the company concerned cannot produce the copy of the agreement how can the CRAs still say well you have given them the right to send us the information. Well we havent as neither the company nor the CRAs can prove this fact so therefore again it is not down to you to prove the information is incorrect it should be down to the CRAs to get hard proof from the companies if you are ever querying the information on your Credit File and if you are then the information should be deleted otherwise until they can prove that it. Anyway even still it is your personal information and if you want it removed then you should be allowed to on your say so not another companies say so, they just think that they are a law upon themselves like the banks.

 

What do you reckon with more people power which is gaining quite a momentum lately might just bring down the whole dirty scandalous economy down in the next few years? LOL

[Number6]

Right. I'd like some input from knowledgeable souls on here with advice on where to go next.

 

I have received the following missive from Experian (this is the third "sod off" letter I've had from them so far!):

 

Our Ref: PL/NOREF/***********

 

6 September 2006

 

Dear **************

 

Thank you for your e-mail received on 5 September 2006.

 

I acknowledge your comments and can confirm that I am fully aware of the sections of the Data Protection Act 1998 that you have quoted.

 

With reference to my previous correspondence, at no time have I suggested that Experian does not process any data by automatic means.

 

Section 12 of the Data Protection Act is entitled 'Rights in relation to automated decision-taking'.

 

Section 12 stipulates that the individual (data subject) can request 'that no decision taken by the data controller which significantly affects that individual is based solely on the processing by automatic means'.

 

I have explained in my earlier letters that although Experian processes data using automated systems, we do not make any decisions in relation to the data that we hold. Consequently, we will not be ceasing to process your data by automatic means.

 

This is why I have suggested that you approach the companies to whom you apply for credit with your Section 12(1) request, as they are the companies who may be making automated decisions based upon the data recorded in your name.

 

In view of this, I will not be adding the statement that you have requested to be added to your report.

 

You might be interested to note that I have been in direct contact with our regulator, the Information Commissioner's Office, in relation to Section 12 of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

The Information Commissioner's Office has agreed with our stance that, as a reference agency, we are not making any decisions regarding the information that we process using automated systems so therefore your request under Section 12 does not apply. Unless you decide to legally challenge our position, I will not be answering any further correspondence in relation to Section 12 as I have fully explained our in relation to this part of the Data Protection Act.

 

I reiterate that until such time that you are in receipt of a credit report your entitlement to have a statement added to your report under Section 159 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is not invoked.

 

As you have indicated that you have studied the Data Protection Act 1998, I am sure that you are aware that Section 10 of the Act is the relevant Section of the Act that you can use should you wish to request that a company ceases processing your personal data. This is applicable if you believe that the data being processed has caused you or may cause you damage and distress.

 

If you have any further queries please feel free to contact me directly either by e-mail at [email protected] or by telephone on 0115 905 5452. Alternatively, you can write to me at the following address:

 

Directors' Office, Consumer Help Service, Experian Ltd, PO Box 8000, Nottingham, NG80 7WF

 

Kind regards

 

Mr Paul Lever

 

Consumer Compliance Executive

 

Directors' Office

 

In view of SB's posts yesterday what should I say in my next reply to them?

[chrismc]

SB

 

Some great posts here, I have only just caught up with this thread and not had chance to read everything so apologies if this has already been covered, but

They have likewise totally admitted that there is not legal statute in place that allows any CRA to hold data on your credit file except with:

1) An order of the Court (e.g. CCJ, etc), or an exemption from the Secretary of State

2) Your express written permission - they also agreed that you can rescind permission to any Data Controller (other than the Official bodies listed in the Act) - and opt in and out as many times as you so wish.

 

Does this mean that we could in effect write to the CRA's and tell them to remove all data that is not part of a Court Order or an exemption from the Sec of State?

 

So in other words clean up our credit files just by writng to them, as what they record they do because it is only 'Standard Industry Practice' or is that just too simplistic? and am I reading this all wrong.

 

Thanks

Chris

[Tinkerbelle]

As you have indicated that you have studied the Data Protection Act 1998, I am sure that you are aware that Section 10 of the Act is the relevant Section of the Act that you can use should you wish to request that a company ceases processing your personal data. This is applicable if you believe that the data being processed has caused you or may cause you damage and distress.

 

[chrismc]

and following on from my post above

 

During a call with Experian today, we basically laid the law down and told them to add to following in relation to our friend's file:

"THE DATA SUBJECT HAS EXERCISED HIS RIGHTS UNDER SECTION 12(1) OF THE DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 AND HAS CHOSEN TO OPT OUT OF AUTOMATED PROCESSING AS OF 05 SEPT 2006. CREDIT STATUS ENQUIRIES SHOULD BE MADE VIA A MANUAL PROCESS."

 

and to remove ALL data from automated searches and destroy all entires relating to historic accounts.

 

How would this affect his future credit chances, good/bad?

[Tinkerbelle]

SB

 

Some great posts here, I have only just caught up with this thread and not had chance to read everything so apologies if this has already been covered, but

 

 

Does this mean that we could in effect write to the CRA's and tell them to remove all data that is not part of a Court Order or an exemption from the Sec of State?

 

So in other words clean up our credit files just by writng to them, as what they record they do because it is only 'Standard Industry Practice' or is that just too simplistic? and am I reading this all wrong.

 

Thanks

Chris

 

Yes

[chrismc]

Yes

 

Tinkerbelle....does that mean Yes we can or Yes I am reading it all wrong and if we can write and do as I say, has anyone done it yet, do we have any letter templates ready to go

[Number6]

 

Why the "neutral" reaction Tinkerbelle?

[Tinkerbelle]

Tinkerbelle....does that mean Yes we can or Yes I am reading it all wrong and if we can write and do as I say, has anyone done it yet, do we have any letter templates ready to go

 

It means yes we can..you have not read it wrong.

 

Apart fromthe template letter that is at the top of this forum, not other templates exist.

 

However, there is so much information posted here by SB that it should not be a problem for anyone here to write their own letters. There are links and information galore. It's a case of understanding the legislation and taking it from there. Take a thorough read of the Default Hell thread as well as the sticky and you will have a clearer picture.

 

Good luck!

[chrismc]

It means yes we can..you have not read it wrong.

 

Apart fromthe template letter that is at the top of this forum, not other templates exist.

 

However, there is so much information posted here by SB that it should not be a problem for anyone here to write their own letters. There are links and information galore. It's a case of understanding the legislation and taking it from there. Take a thorough read of the Default Hell thread as well as the sticky and you will have a clearer picture.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks Tinkers!!

 

I have not had chance to read too much on tbis topic yet as been busy with my own claims etc, But good to hear there is now another way of fighting back!!

 

Chris

[SurlyBonds]

SB

 

Some great posts here, I have only just caught up with this thread and not had chance to read everything so apologies if this has already been covered, but

 

 

Does this mean that we could in effect write to the CRA's and tell them to remove all data that is not part of a Court Order or an exemption from the Sec of State?

 

So in other words clean up our credit files just by writng to them, as what they record they do because it is only 'Standard Industry Practice' or is that just too simplistic? and am I reading this all wrong.

 

Thanks

Chris

 

Yes, perhaps a little too simplistic...

 

My advice is, and always has been, this...

1) If you do actually owe the money under a default, then pay it off, or keep to an arrangement. However, if any of it is through penalty charges (or the default notice was due to penalty charges and interest), get that back and make it a condition of the claim that they remove the default notice forever.

2) My tact with the people I've helped, and my own file, is to remove all historic data and settled accounts. I am leaving my own 'running' accounts on there - as I did give permission in my contract.

 

Essentially, if a particular 'settled' default is causing you aggro, challenge the CRA and lender on the grounds that you have never given them permission in your contract to process your date after the cessation of the contract. The 'rule' they keep bleating about six years is a load of nonsense, and there is no statute in place.

 

After lengthy phone calls to the OFT, I.C.O. and the CRAs, they have finally admitted that this is just the way they've done it because it's what they call "standard industry practice". My argument is that I.C.O. "recommendations", "industry practice" does not equate to "legal right", and I doubt that a judge would see it that way either.

 

I have only got my way on settled defaults only, I haven't tried it on any outstanding ones, as I don't personally have any. But, the people I have helped out have had success with the lenders with the "missing default notice" strategy - under the CCA, if they can't find a copy of the notice, then it is deemed not to have happened. In that case, under the DPA, the data that the CRAs is storing is inaccurate, and you can demand that it is to be removed.

 

But seriously, make THEM work for it... you don't have to do the proving, they do.... you are the one taking action (be it via correspondence or legal) against THEM. It is NOT the other way around.

 

If they come back with ANY bulls**t whatsoever, about terms and conditions, default notices, etc., issue a demand under the CCA to get them to send you copies and ask them to highlight in those copies the exact terms that allowed them to process your data for six years after the end of the contract.

 

Also, under the terminology of the DPA, disclosure of data is deemed a "process", so any lender that is allowed to automatically log in to your credit data to perform a search is transacting a process.

 

Finally, don't accept any bull from these Muppets about who owns the data - it ain't them... it is you and only you alone who decides who stores and processes it (except Govt. agencies), either by signing a contract or writing to them.

 

So next time someone shoves a contract under your nose to sign, read the Data Protection bit and edit it to YOUR satisfaction. I simply add the words "for the duration of the contract" under the entire clause and initial it (and make sure it's gone through the carbon!!)

 

Interestingly, since I kicked up merry hell with Orange, they have since changed their standard Terms and Conditions to read:

14.3Orange or its Group companies will use your information which you provide to us together with other information for administration, marketing, credit scoring, customer services, tracking your Device and web use preferences, and profiling your purchasing preferences. We will disclose your information to our service providers and agents to help us with these purposes. We will keep your information for a reasonable period after your Contract with us has finished in case you decide to use our Services again and may contact you about our Services during this time.

 

Note that they have used the word "reasonable" to synch with the same word in the DPA.

 

Hmmmmmm... so be very careful about what you sign.

[chrismc]

Thanks SB that is great advice and a clear and concise explanation.

[Number6]

Any comments on my post #153?

[jamesbond]

excellent reading from every one, i am totally entertained by it!!

my question is surely under the Data Protection Act you have a lawful right to terminate any processing of your data by automated means irrespective of if you have a contract in force with a lender or not as your rights under the Data Protection Act will overide any agreement you have made within a contractual agreement? can someone clarify as to if this is the case and the Data Protection Act rights afforded you do in fact overide a contractual agreement.

[SurlyBonds]

Any comments on my post #153?

 

Comments and advice: County Court

[ppauls150]

LOL just had a conversation with Experian regarding the information that they hold. I know what your thinking your P1ssing into the wind regarding the subject but thought i would post what happened.

 

If a company wants to update your records they can do so and it will be actioned within 48 hours.

If you want your records updated or something changed or removed it can take up to 7 to 10 days to be actioned once it arrives onto the system.

 

The information stored on your credit file belongs to the companies to do as they wish as this data belongs to them and not you. You cannot get any data removed from the credit file just on your say so as it is the companies information and you have to contact them to get anything changed. LOL (cheek of it surely that should be the other way around?)

 

I mentioned to him what happens if any companies concerned cannot produce the information to show that you have not given them the right to process your data? and his reply is we cannot do anything on your say so even if they cannot produce the right information to you. All we can do is ask them if it is right. (Knew this already which is b*lls**t.) and they just have to say yes and then they leave it.

 

I said why can you not ask for proof that they have the right to process your information when we are saying that we have not given them the authorization? He said well we work on trust and if they do a a search or store information on yourself we are trusting them that they have got your permission to do this.

 

So i said any tom dick or harry can just come and do a search on myself then? he said yes but if you believe that they shouldnt have then you should contact the Information Commissioner about them not us as we cannot do anything about it. LOL

 

Who is finally going to bring these Idiots down a peg or two once and for all ? SB?

[SurlyBonds]

Who is finally going to bring these Idiots down a peg or two once and for all ? SB?

 

See my latest thread "Victory at last" [firkin big smirk on me face]

[Robertxc]

An excellent thread everybody! Well done SurlyBonds! Since this forum started a lot of the paradigms which have existed around banks, CRAs and debt collection agencies have started to crumble. I think it's fantastic that we have threads like this, and it's great to see the willingness and patience of those people who understand the issues to talk them through with those who don't. It just goes to show that you can never take anything at face value when it comes to the dealings between large profit-hungry organisations and ordinary consumers. I think it's vital that those of us with the confidence to challenge these companies continue to do so relentlessly, so that we ensure that a bright light is shone on all their dodgy little practices.

 

Incidentally, I have a letter from Equifax stating that their clients (the banks) have unrestricted computerised access to all their customers' credit files, and that they can alter them at will!

[SurlyBonds]

Incidentally, I have a letter from Equifax stating that their clients (the banks) have unrestricted computerised access to all their customers' credit files, and that they can alter them at will!

 

Unfortunately, this is about right...

 

Most banks supply an update tape each month, which writes or edits entries into the CRA databases, via their subscription gateway, the transactions are written to the interface standards that the CRAs publish to their subscribers.

 

But there again, they can only have you (as a few bleeps and whistles) on that tape in the first place because you signed a contract...

 

When they do a search, they login through a subscription gateway with your details to start doing a name and address match, and once matched up, they pull the data from your file down into their machines and run their scoring process through it and then spit out a "no firkin way" or "yes, please...we'd love to have you as yet another mug" screen flash. This is a fully automated process, unless there is a notice marker on the file.

[countrybake]

about 1 year ago my credit file was immaculate and i was always getting letters from credit card companys etc. without ever having any dealings with them in the past saying i have been selected (great) 3 a week sometimes of these, now my credit file is well below standard i get none of these. So obviously these company's are scanning the credit files for pottential good customers.

[SurlyBonds]

about 1 year ago my credit file was immaculate and i was always getting letters from credit card companys etc. without ever having any dealings with them in the past saying i have been selected (great) 3 a week sometimes of these, now my credit file is well below standard i get none of these. So obviously these company's are scanning the credit files for potential good customers.

 

Absolutely they are... and they are allowed to, because you gave permisison in your contract, usually along the lines of:

"you grant us permission to disclose your data to a credit reference agency, and for other lenders to access that data and make informed decisions as to your management of the account, and for other lawful purposes under the provisions of the Data Protection Act".

 

Basically, once you signed a contract that had something like that in it, unless you ticked the two little boxes at the bottom:

"xyz plc will notify you of other group offers, promotions, etc... if you wish them not to do so, then please tick here"

and

"xyz plc will notify you of other offers, promotions, from carefully selected trading partners etc... if you wish them not to do so, then please tick here"

 

...you stuffed yourself!

 

However, you can issue a StatNote to the CRAs under Section 11 requring them to remove all access to your data for any marketing or general enquiry purposes:

 

Right to prevent processing for purposes of direct marketing.

 

11. - (1) An individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing for the purposes of direct marketing personal data in respect of which he is the data subject.

 

(2) If the court is satisfied, on the application of any person who has given a notice under subsection (1), that the data controller has failed to comply with the notice, the court may order him to take such steps for complying with the notice as the court thinks fit.

(3) In this section "direct marketing" means the communication (by whatever means) of any advertising or marketing material which is directed to particular individuals.

 

It then becomes a criminal offence if they carry on doing so.

[Enough's Enough]

However, you can issue a StatNote to the CRAs under Section 11 requring them to remove all access to your data for any marketing or general enquiry purposes:

 

Has there been a template made to this effect yet???? As I think there'll he a mass of them sent out if there were....

 

I've looked but cant find one on the template section....I appologise if I've missed it.....

[Tinkerbelle]

Has there been a template made to this effect yet???? As I think there'll he a mass of them sent out if there were....

 

I've looked but cant find one on the template section....I appologise if I've missed it.....

 

There isn't one. Would you like to create one?

[countrybake]

Basically, once you signed a contract that had something like that in it, unless you ticked the two little boxes at the bottom:

"xyz plc will notify you of other group offers, promotions, etc... if you wish them not to do so, then please tick here"

and

"xyz plc will notify you of other offers, promotions, from carefully selected trading partners etc... if you wish them not to do so, then please tick here"

 

I do usualy as a rule tick those boxes that you refer to, would there be other ways they devulge our info to just let them scan everyone's personal data to find pottential good customers. As i would think they get an awfull lot more monies off these companies than our individual £2 every now and then, and they would like to keep them happy rather than us.