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    • If a DCA supplies a reconstituted copy of the CCA what would be the next step. It seems that a reconstituted copy must be a " true copy " of the executed agreement, it must contain the Prescribed Terms. But given that there is no copy of the applicants signature surely it could be an agreement form with the details filled in. How can it be assumed that this " copy " represents a true copy that the claimant has supposed to have signed. Cabot have demonstrated a bit of sabre rattling when they say "Until we're able to provide this information , your account is unenforceable. This means we're not permitted to obtain a County Court judgement against you . Whilst we cannot pursue legal action, your balance remains outstanding ". I looked up a case... Cabot UK Ltd  v  Bachellier (2010) which might help, but it's tough reading, I'd prefer to plough through War and Peace. This particular case with Cabot is not huge , approx' £140, but the only other worry that I have is also with Cabot...£2100. They may try to make a point with lesser case.        
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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Credit Ref Agency reply to DPA s.12 request-help please


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>>snip

 

Wrong! Public Domain data are things such as CCJ’s, Bankruptcy Orders/Discharges, IVAs, etc. iwhich are sealed orders issued by a judge in a court of law, and does not apply to a default issued by some dodgy loan shark or anyone else for that matter.

 

That is why lenders obtain your consent, (when you apply for credit) to check your credit report, for a record of the check to be retained by the CRA, and for information about any subsequent account you are granted to be shared with other lenders through the CRAs, to promote responsible lending, fight fraud etc.

>>snip

 

Again I disagree. The law clearly states:

“3. Personal data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purpose or purposes for which they are processed.

5. Personal data processed for any purpose or purposes shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes.”

 

My contract with x has ended so we have no legally binding contract. Therefore whatever I agreed to at the time of signing the contract –including updating CRA’s – ends there and then. x has no right to continue sending my data out to every Tom, Dick and Harry. It’s written down in law.

 

And Finally, the CCA (1974)clearly states:

 

(1) No information obtained under or by virtue of this Act about any individual shall be disclosed without his consent.

 

No individual has actually given direct consent to the CRA’s to hang on to their data and sell it off to the highest bidder. Most (if not all) contracts say “may disclose information relating to the status of your account to any credit reference agency or debt recovery agency”. Nothing there about them being required by law to do so, let alone for 6 years!!. Even if it did they would then be looking at a breach of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs. 1999 Act.

 

If you can tell us where in the law books it states that a default has to be registered with a CRA for 6 years – then I’ll shut up. Not even the Information Commissioner has said that a record must be kept on file for 6 years. In fact they say “Your credit file may show the following:

  • A live account - This may show on your credit reference file until the account is settled or closed. It may then show on your file for 6 years.

  • A settled or closed account. This may show on your credit reference file or 6 yearsfrom the date it was closed.

  • A defaulted account. This may show on your credit reference file for 6 years from the date of the default.

So where on earth have CRA's got this idea from that a default has to remain on a credit file for for 6 years?

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By the way, does anyone know if the Human Rights Act only applies to Public Bodies as Experian are claiming? Sounds like a load of tosh to me!

 

Pete

 

They are talking a load of tosh (& they know it)

& heres why!

 

The Human Rights Act 1998

 

This important piece of legislation came into force on 2 October 2000. It "incorporates" into UK law the European Convention on Human Rights. This means that if you believe your Convention rights have been violated you can for the first time ask a court in England or Wales to deal with it.

 

The Human Rights Act applies to public authorities, including bodies which carry out public functions. It does not generally apply to disputes with a private individual or company, unless it is carrying out a public function (for example, a home providing accommodation for the local authority).

However, section 6(1) says: "It is unlawful for a public authority to act in a way which is incompatible with a Convention right." Public bodies must therefore be proactive in promoting user rights.

& this is the good bit

 

If a private company is disregarding your Convention rights, you may be able to use the Human Rights Act if you can show that the Government, or another public body, has a legal duty to intervene.

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I didn't say we are beyond the law, I said that we go beyond the letter of the law in they way we run our business - i.e. that we do more than we have to. I sense a definite air of belligerence!

 

Your explicit permission for us to pass a copy of your credit report to enquiring lenders is obtained (on our behalf) by those lenders during the credit application process. This is a contractual obligation all our clients have to agree to before they are given access to data. Our processes and procedures are always developed in close consultation with our regulators and, as I said before, we often go beyond our legal obligations by adopting more stringent measures.

 

On the six-year issue, as the legislation quoted in a previous reply confirms, personal data can be held for as long as is considered reasonable. CCJs are kept on the public record (and therefore on a credit report) for six years and I think that became the accepted industry standard (with regulator approval) for retaining other financial records too. When you apply for credit, lenders not only want to check your current borrowing situation but also your past borrowing record and six years of borrowing history is, in my opinion, reasonable and certainly not excessive.

 

By 'in the public domain' I did actually mean CCJs, bankruptcies etc - not private credit accounts records. I think I went on to explain how consent is obtained to process such private data.

 

I will happily continue to answer your questions and contribute to this site - as I regularly do on a number of sites (incl MSE, stoozing.com etc) - but I would ask some of you to be a little more polite. :)

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QUOTEYour explicit permission for us to pass a copy of your credit report to enquiring lenders is obtained (on our behalf) by those lenders during the credit application process

 

In what way precisely? Give us an example based on a real case.

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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James we welcome your contribution to this site and are very happy that you are here.

 

I think we were all shocked and got somewhat over-excited at your presence, hence the flurry of what could be considered "hostile" responses (myself included):D

 

We look forward to having lots of nice, friendly and healthy debates with you on this often emotive topic.

 

Welcome to our site :D

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I for one welcome your presence here James.

 

Can you just tell us though, in general terms in what capacity you are employed by Experian. I'm not trying to be nosey, I just want to know whether you are the office junior or the MD :-) You know what I mean!

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Thank you Tinkerbell.

 

On the consent issue: lenders' credit application forms include what we call 'fair obtaining clauses' which should appear next to where you sign and which obtain your consent to process data in the ways cited (the clauses will vary from lender to lender). This will include obtaining your permission for them to check the data on your credit report at one or more CRAs.

 

You'll find details of the guidance we give to lenders about this on our website, here:

 

Fair Obtaining Clauses | Experian UK

 

Before we allow lenders access to our database we will check that their clauses are satisfactory to make sure all the necessary consents are being obtained.

 

James

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I for one welcome your presence here James.

 

Can you just tell us though, in general terms in what capacity you are employed by Experian. I'm not trying to be nosey, I just want to know whether you are the office junior or the MD :-) You know what I mean!

 

Pete

 

Sure, Consumer Affairs Manager and UK spokesperson - so not quite MD yet :)

 

My department manages our UK consumer education work - a lot of the guides we produce and educational projects we are involved in are detailed in the Learning Zone section of our website: Redirect | Experian UK. Take a look, I'm sure you'll find it all very interesting.

 

James

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Thank you Tinkerbell.

 

On the consent issue: lenders' credit application forms include what we call 'fair obtaining clauses' which should appear next to where you sign and which obtain your consent to process data in the ways cited (the clauses will vary from lender to lender). This will include obtaining your permission for them to check the data on your credit report at one or more CRAs.

 

You'll find details of the guidance we give to lenders about this on our website, here:

 

Fair Obtaining Clauses | Experian UK

 

Before we allow lenders access to our database we will check that their clauses are satisfactory to make sure all the necessary consents are being obtained.

 

James

 

I know about the Obtaining Clauses but have yet to see one that says "Any permissions that I (being the client) give to you (the lender) to divulge my data to a third party (i.e. Experian) also gives permission to that third party to divulge my data to a fourth party that is not party to the original agreement"

 

Can you explain how the fact that I give "A" permission to give my information to "B" also gives "B" the right to divulge that information to "C", etc.

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Your explicit permission for us to pass a copy of your credit report to enquiring lenders is obtained (on our behalf) by those lenders during the credit application process. :)

 

 

James, welcome to the forum, you are a brave man !

 

I am just trying to establish quite what authority we, as consumers actually give CRA's to process the data. My understanding was that the contract was between ourselves and the financial institution and upon signing the contract we give them the right to share our information with third parties such as yourselves.

 

However, perhaps you could explain in laymans terms to the 60,000 or so on this forum quite where the authority derives from for you or any CRA to then share this information thereafter. I may be missing something here, but you are stating that our permission is obtained for you to pass a copy of our credit report by the lender on your behalf? On your behalf? Where do you fit into the equation? We give the okay to share the data with a third party, not for the thrid party to sell this information to anyone who pays.

 

Perhaps you'll be good enough to expalin this and how you think this fits in with the Data Protection Act

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: Sorry Worcester, I was typing up whilst you posted

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Where does it say HERE that I give permission for the CRA to divulge data that lenders give to them about me?

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Each lender can only access your credit report with your consent - which they each must obtain themselves, usually when you apply for something and give them a reason to want to check.

 

With respect, you're missing the point.

 

From where do YOU derive the authority to divulge private subject data?

 

I give a lender permission to search my file but you do not have my permission to divulge my data..... discuss.

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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James, welcome to the forum, you are a brave man !

 

I am just trying to establish quite what authority we, as consumers actually give CRA's to process the data. My understanding was that the contract was between ourselves and the financial institution and upon signing the contract we give them the right to share our information with third parties such as yourselves.

 

However, perhaps you could explain in laymans terms to the 60,000 or so on this forum quite where the authority derives from for you or any CRA to then share this information thereafter. I may be missing something here, but you are stating that our permission is obtained for you to pass a copy of our credit report by the lender on your behalf? On your behalf? Where do you fit into the equation? We give the okay to share the data with a third party, not for the thrid party to sell this information to anyone who pays.

 

Perhaps you'll be good enough to expalin this and how you think this fits in with the Data Protection Act

 

Thanks

 

EDIT: Sorry Worcester, I was typing up whilst you posted

 

We don't sell your data to anyone who pays - only to legitimate lenders that you choose to do business with and that you give the appropriate consents to.

 

I'm afraid I can't stay on here all day but I will check back again soon.

 

James

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We don't sell your data to anyone who pays - only to legitimate lenders that you choose to do business with and that you give the appropriate consents to.

 

I'm afraid I can't stay on here all day but I will check back again soon.

 

James

 

The last couple of replies smack of dodging the question IMO.

 

It's very straightforward - all I'm asking is from where do Experian derive their permission under the law to divulge MY data to anyone else.

 

This should be a very simple question for you to answer so why don't you?

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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James, Worcester has a very vallied point and I think you need to address this as both he and I seem to be coming from the same hymn sheet.

 

I chose to get financial products from Lloyds and Halifax

I give them both my permission to share with third parties - that means to give the information to someone else - fine.

They provide my credit history to a CRA ie you Experian, Equifax, Callcredit being the third party in question.

 

Nowhere do we give permission for the third party to 'share' our data.

 

You say " Your explicit permission for us to pass a copy of your credit report to enquiring lenders is obtained (on our behalf) by those lenders during the credit application process"

 

I think we would all benefit from a thorough explanation of exactly what derives from whom and with who's authority and how it is worded in our contracts.

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It is, to me interesting that as soon as the "awkward" question is asked that the Experian employee decides that he's too busy to answer ;-)

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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James, Worcester has a very vallied point and I think you need to address this as both he and I seem to be coming from the same hymn sheet.

 

I chose to get financial products from Lloyds and Halifax

I give them both my permission to share with third parties - that means to give the information to someone else - fine.

They provide my credit history to a CRA ie you Experian, Equifax, Callcredit being the third party in question.

 

Nowhere do we give permission for the third party to 'share' our data.

 

You say " Your explicit permission for us to pass a copy of your credit report to enquiring lenders is obtained (on our behalf) by those lenders during the credit application process"

 

I think we would all benefit from a thorough explanation of exactly what derives from whom and with who's authority and how it is worded in our contracts.

 

Andrew.

 

So far as I can see if you apply for credit then by signing for T&C's you give permission for the lender to a) search your credit file and b) divulge the information that you give to the lender to the CRA.

 

Nowhere that I can see do we give permission to the CRA to give a lender or prospective lender information that other lenders have previously given the CRA. In other words the "credit file" that the CRA give to the lender should only contain information legally in the public domain - i.e. CCJ's, IVA's etc. They simply do not have the authority to divulge anything else and it's my gut feeling (my opinion only) that James was told (by the powers that be at Experian) to get his arse onto here to try and put people off. I may be wrong though. :rolleyes:

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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From what he say's he is on other sites too. Be interesting to see if the same question doesn't arise there too.

 

I am hoping he will be honest and truthful and not be planted as you MAY be suggesting, although I would probably do the same if my livlihood was being threatend as theirs are.

 

This is a very serious issue and we need James to be as precise and answer the questions head on. It benefits both consumers and the CRA's if we all know exactly what their own interpretation is so that unnecessary challenges to their position on the DPA are not detracting us from the real issues.

 

He sounds like an honest sort of guy and I hope the dialogue continues so we can establish exactly what's going on inside the CRA's

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james..i recently paid 2.50 on my credit card over the phone to experian to receive a copy of my credit reference file...thought it would speed things up a little rather that send postal order..you replied four days later requesting further documents which must be original and include bank or credit card or mortgage statements...photocopies can not be accepted...plus a copy of either a passport, birth certificate or full driving license..now everyone must appreciate that they are very confidential documents you are requesting and i see no mention of if these will be returned to me via special delivery as i really wouldnt like to send them any other way due to the sensitive nature of these documents, and the risk of their loss. so my original cost has now arisen to 4.10 for special delivery and 2.50 for my credit card application? why is it if i had paid you 10 quid on my credit card on the phone i could have had all this info the next day on my computor screen with out further checks? it appears that this is no more than an attempt to extract more money from me by making it difficult to onbtain my files held by you asking for highly personal information, when you know it has been ordered on a credit card in my name and is being sent to an address which is on your file and has been for five years...i dispatched my 2 pounds postal order to equifax and it was with me within 4 days?? i look forward to your response on this matter beingas you were voted business of the year or whatever?:rolleyes:

"ALWAYS QUOTE ME AS BEING MISQUOTED" :D

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Please play nicely people. There is no need for hostilities. :cool:

 

I'm not being hostile Tinkerbelle, cynical maybe but not hostile. I may be wrong but a lot of people start writing to Experian asking them to dump the data, then suddenly James pops up on here telling us all what we can't do (in his opinion) and as soon as a very straightforward question about permissions is asked he cries off claiming he's too busy. :confused:

 

If I have done him a mis-service I will apologise.

 

Pete

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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i have read fully your disclosure rights and cannot see any statements regarding wanting all the highly confidential documents you request..even the dpa states reasonable proof, not all these highly sensitive documents,

please let me know if i have missed something?

 

158 Duty of agency to disclose filed information

 

(1) A credit reference agency, within the prescribed period after receiving,

 

(a) a request in writing to that effect from any partnership or other unincorporated body of persons not consisting entirely of bodies corporate (the “consumer”) and

 

 

(b) such particulars as the agency may reasonably require to enable them to identify the file, and

 

 

© a fee of £2,

 

 

shall give the consumer a copy of the file relating to it kept by the agency.

 

(2) When giving a copy of the file under subsection (1), the agency shall also give the consumer a statement in the prescribed form of the consumer’s rights under section 159.

 

(3) If the agency does not keep a file relating to the consumer it shall give the consumer notice of that fact, but need not return any money paid.

 

(4) If the agency contravenes any provision of this section it commits an offence.

 

(5) In this Act “file”, in relation to an individual, means all the information about him kept by a credit reference agency, regardless of how the information is stored and “copy of the file”, as respects information not in plain English, means a transcript reduced into plain English.

"ALWAYS QUOTE ME AS BEING MISQUOTED" :D

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I'm no expert in the intricacies of data protection law but this is the way I see it and the way I think this situation is best understood: the CRAs act as a clearing house for lenders to share with each other their customers' data. Lenders each get your permission to access and store your information at appropriate times in their processing and decision making.

 

The service we provide simply enables this whole process. So, in effect, lenders submit the data with your consent and lenders retrieve it with your consent. We simply allow lenders to store the data centrally for when they need it. And, as I said before, we are licensed by the appropriate regulatory bodies and fulfil the required obligations to provide this service.

 

On this issue of authenticating credit report applicants, as far as I understand, the same checks are made regardless of how you choose to access your Experian credit report (paper report or online). We take our responsibility to look after the data we hold about you very seriously and make what we believe are appropriate checks before sending a copy of your credit report to you.

 

Occasionally we do ask for documents to confirm someone's identity, but only when circumstances dictate, such as when the applicant has moved home recently (and therefore has little or no data on our records at the new address) or perhaps where the is a record of fraud at one of the addresses on the application. We are allowed to make sure checks before we send a report and we certainly do not do this to make people's lives more difficult - it certainly doesn't make our lives any easier.

 

James

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i have read fully your disclosure rights and cannot see any statements regarding wanting all the highly confidential documents you request..

please let me know if i have missed something?

 

158 Duty of agency to disclose filed information

 

(1) A credit reference agency, within the prescribed period after receiving,

 

(a) a request in writing to that effect from any partnership or other unincorporated body of persons not consisting entirely of bodies corporate (the “consumer”) and

 

 

(b) such particulars as the agency may reasonably require to enable them to identify the file, and

 

 

© a fee of £2,

 

 

shall give the consumer a copy of the file relating to it kept by the agency.

 

(2) When giving a copy of the file under subsection (1), the agency shall also give the consumer a statement in the prescribed form of the consumer’s rights under section 159.

 

(3) If the agency does not keep a file relating to the consumer it shall give the consumer notice of that fact, but need not return any money paid.

 

(4) If the agency contravenes any provision of this section it commits an offence.

 

(5) In this Act “file”, in relation to an individual, means all the information about him kept by a credit reference agency, regardless of how the information is stored and “copy of the file”, as respects information not in plain English, means a transcript reduced into plain English.

 

See DPA S7.

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