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    • Absolutely for the agreement they are referring to.... puts them on notice that this is going to be a uphill fight.   Andy 
    • Particular's of claim for reference only 1. the claim is for the sum of £6163.61due by the defendant under an agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 for hsbc uk bank plc. Account (16 digits) 2. The defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required by the agreement and a default notice was served under s 87(1)  of the consumer credit act 1974 which as not been compiled with. 3. The debt was legally assigned to the Claimant on 23/08/23, notice on which as been given to the defendant.  4. The claim includes statutory interest under S.69 of the county courts act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issue of these proceedings in the sum of £117.53 the Claimant claims the sum of £6281.14. Suggested defence 1. The Defendant contends the particulars of the claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.3 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. The claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre action protocol) failed to serve a letter of claim pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st of October 2017. It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant 7.1 PAPDC. 3. Paragraph 1 is noted. I have in the past had financial dealings but do not recognise this specific account number or recollect any outstanding debt and have therefore requested clarification. 4. Paragraph 2 is denied. I have not been served with a default notice pursuant to the consumer credit act 1974. 5. Paragraph 3 is denied. i am unaware of any legal assignment or notice of assignment. A copy of assignment was sent by Overdales solicitors when acknowledgement of receipt of CPR request was received, but this was not the original.   6. Paragraph 4 is denied. Neither the original creditor or the assignee have served notice pursuant to sec86c of the Credit Consumer Act 1974 Notice of Sums in Arrears and therefore prevented from charging interest on debt regulated by the CCA1974. 7. The defendant submitted a request for a copy of the alleged agreement pursuant to s78 CCA 1974. The claimant has acknowledged receipt of request but has failed to comply. The claimant has failed to provide any evidence of balance or Default Notice requested by CPR 31.14 8. It is therefore denied with regards to defendant owing any monies to the claimant. therefore the claimant is put to strict proof to:  a.  Show how the defendant has entered into an agreement with HSBC. b.  Show and evidence the nature of breach and service of a Default notice pursuant to section 87 (1) CCA 1974. c.  Show and quantify how the defendant has reached the amount claimed for. d.  Show how the claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity  to issue a claim. 8.  As per civil procedure rule 16.5 (4) it is expected claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 9.  Until such time the claimant can comply to a section 78 request he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement 10. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.     .
    • OK, well rereading the court orders from March, in the cold light of day rather than when knackered late at night, it is quite clear that on 25 June there will only be a preliminary hearing about Laura representing her son.  Nothing more. It's lazy DCBL who haven't read things properly and have stupidly sent their Witness Statement early. Laura & I had already been working on a WS, and here it is.  It needs tweaking now after reading the rubbish that DCBL sent and after all of LFI's comments.  But the "meat" is there. Defendant's WS - version 1.pdf
    • Morning, I purchased a car from Big Motoring World on 10th December 2023 for £14899.00. On the 15th December I had a problem with the auto start stop function of the car in which the car would stop in the middle of the road with a stop start error message. I called the big assist and the car was booked in for February. The BMW was with them for a week and it came back with the auto stop start feature all fine and all error codes cleared on the report from big motoring world. within 5 days I had the same issue. Warning light coming on and the car stopping. I called big assist again and the car was again booked in for an other repair in May. Car was taken back in may, they had the car for a week and returned with the report saying no issue with the auto stop start feature and blamed my driving. Within 5 days of having the car back it broke down again. This time undrivable. I had the rac pick my car up and take to Stephen James BMW for a full diagnostic. The diagnostic came back with the car needing a new fuel system as magnetic swarf was found.  I have sent big motoring world a letter stating all the issues and that under the consumer rights act 2015 I have asked for a replacement vehicle. all reports from Stephen James BMW have been sent over to big motoring world. Big motoring world have come back and said they will respond to my complaint within 14 days for the date of my complaint letter. I am not feeling confident on the response from them, what are my next steps?   Thanks in advance. 
    • That is really good is that a mistake last off "driver doesn't have a licence" I assume that should be keeper? The Court requested me to send the Court and applicant proof of my sons disability from their GP this clearly shows he has Severe Mental Impairement, he is also illiterate.  I naively assumed once the applicant received this that they would drop the claim.  It offends me that Bank has asked the Judge to throw the case out at the preliminary hearing and to make us pay up.
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Anyone taken PayPal to the Small Claims over witheld money?


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Just that... they've arbritrarily witheld nearly £400 of mine demanding that I send goods to the buyers before they release (after the buyer has said alls good, of course)

 

I think thats illegal regardless of PayPals T&Cs - my contract is with the buyer, who bid on a No Returns basis and Immediate Payment terms.

 

Anyone got any pointers to any relevant threads or experiences?

 

Cheers

 

LotM

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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If you accept PP, you accept their terms.

 

Nowhere in their terms does it state "we will misappropriate funds paid to us in good faith" or "We will force your buyer to alter the terms of your contract with them" or "We reserve the right to force onerous terms upon you contrary to the legally binding contract between you and a third party."

 

If I'm wrong... point away. I'm here to learn.

 

If your buyer pays by a different method, PPs terms are meaningless... not 'illegal'.

 

?

 

Secondly, you cannot take them to Small Claims, you need to raise an EU action, as they are a Luxembourg Bank.

 

PayPal trade from Irish offices. When you have to send validation documents they are sent to Eire, not Luxembourg, besides which, I believe I'm right in saying that if you trade in the UK, you are subject to UK laws by default? Could you check on that?

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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(1) That's your interpretation, from your PoV. They are required to protect funds using excuses such as 'security' and 'money laundering' that will take precedence over your own wishes.

(2) If your buyer call round and paid you cash for the item - PPs terms are irrelevant.

(3) They have their European Headquarters in Wesat Dublin, but as a BANK they are registered in Luxembourg, and to be competent, you would still have to raise an EU action (for Eire) but it would be best serviced on Luxembourg as they are regulated from there.

 

(4) EU Laws apply - and Luxembourg ones. There's no 'default' UK liability I'm afraid.

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(1) That's your interpretation, from your PoV. They are required to protect funds using excuses such as 'security' and 'money laundering' that will take precedence over your own wishes.

 

Just spent an hour perusing threads on paypal via search :) You seem to have quite a soft spot for PayPal Buzby :)

 

(2) If your buyer call round and paid you cash for the item - PPs terms are irrelevant.

 

As is you keep making this point old chap - if the buyer had paid cash, PayPal couldn't be robbing me, eh?

 

(3) They have their European Headquarters in Wesat Dublin, but as a BANK they are registered in Luxembourg, and to be competent, you would still have to raise an EU action (for Eire) but it would be best serviced on Luxembourg as they are regulated from there.

 

(4) EU Laws apply - and Luxembourg ones. There's no 'default' UK liability I'm afraid.

 

Leaving aside that I think you're wrong about going through Europe -

what do you make of this address Buzby?

 

PAYPAL (EUROPE) LTD

WHITTAKER HOUSE

WHITTAKER AVENUE

RICHMOND

SURREY

TW9 1EH

 

UK trading company, and therefore subject to UK law, perhaps?

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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Paypal used to have a UK trading company before becoming a bank under Luxembourg law

Ex-Retail Manager who is happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. Any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law.

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Paypal used to have a UK trading company before becoming a bank under Luxembourg law

 

 

Looks as if they still do Blitz, as per 192.com:

 

Paypal (Europe) Ltd

Carmelite

50 Victoria Embankment

Fleet Street

London

EC4Y 0DX

 

Tel. 020 8439 2000

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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Look - if you want to run with old information, fine. They became Registered as a Bank in Luxembourg in 2008, and at the same time de-registered from the UK Regulator at the same time.

 

You can pursue them in Ireland or London as you wish - but they don't have to respond (other than to tell the court documentation needs to be served in Luxembourg), and you lose your court fee regardless.

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Look - if you want to run with old information, fine. They became Registered as a Bank in Luxembourg in 2008, and at the same time de-registered from the UK Regulator at the same time.

 

You can pursue them in Ireland or London as you wish - but they don't have to respond (other than to tell the court documentation needs to be served in Luxembourg), and you lose your court fee regardless.

 

 

OK, thats a starter for ten: when is a company trading in the UK to UK citizens excempt from UK consumer law and excempt from UK Civil Law?

 

Do you know that?

 

 

Another point:

 

I wasnt aware that - eg - if a summons was served on a company registered at Companys House (ie a bona fide British Company) they could claim exemmption from UK civil and criminal law simply by stating their head office is in another country.

 

Are you sure thats correct? Is there precedent for such a thing?

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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Buzby, it appears that under both the Hague and Lugano conventions you are entitled to claim against PayPal in the UK Courts whilst giving their Luxembourg name and address as the Defendant.

You must of course make reasonable steps to contact them by way of a LBA before issuing your summons, as per any other company or individual, ie it isn't strictly neccesary but advisable and "polite".

 

I will dig further, I'm sure you cant wait for the outcome :)

 

I will also look into thier liability under the Data Protection Act and contractual law - put very simply, unless they are in privity with the buyer and the seller (and they are not with either) I *think* they are breaking the law by enforcing a change of contract terms on either, or both parties.

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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I read a good guide to this problem but i cant remember the link im afraid, the author did say he was succesful, like a lot of things PP-related, at the end of the day they are not to keen to contest legal action and will normally give in and release the money.

 

As to where they are based, true it is Luxembourg but I'm sure people have used the UK Richmond address to start court action, but maybe not, I found this advice online..

 

The paypal company that now processes online transactions is registered and located in Luxemberg,they do not have an office in the UK.

 

Paypal (Luxemberg) are not regulated by the FSA, they are now regulated by the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF), the Luxembourg equivalent of the FSA.

 

Paypal have volenteered to still use the Ombudsman service, and this is the only recourse we now have in the UK.

 

Andy

Edited by andydd
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Sorry, you got it complexly upside down - and may waste lots of good money in the process. Your use of PP is governed by their Terms of Service, these have changes 3 times in the last 24 months, including their right to move to Luxy, and disclosure of your dealings to a Credit Reference agency.

 

Each time, I was told if I did not wish to abide by the changes (as is my right) I need to terminate my account by a set date. If I did not, then I have been deemed to have accepted them.

 

How does the DPA get involved in this? It looks as though you are attempting to throw everything at it in the hope of some justification. As for using a UK address, why not Dublin? I did.

 

The advised that Paypal had many branches, however the Banking arm are Regulated in the Grand Dutchy of Luxembourg and the Dublin court had no jurisdiction. The judge agreed having looked at their submission. So re0invent the wheel if you must, but make sure your LBA goes to the Bank, not the sales and marketing office.

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Sorry, you got it complexly upside down - and may waste lots of good money in the process. Your use of PP is governed by their Terms of Service, these have changes 3 times in the last 24 months, including their right to move to Luxy, and disclosure of your dealings to a Credit Reference agency.

 

Each time, I was told if I did not wish to abide by the changes (as is my right) I need to terminate my account by a set date. If I did not, then I have been deemed to have accepted them.

 

How does the DPA get involved in this? It looks as though you are attempting to throw everything at it in the hope of some justification. As for using a UK address, why not Dublin? I did.

 

The advised that Paypal had many branches, however the Banking arm are Regulated in the Grand Dutchy of Luxembourg and the Dublin court had no jurisdiction. The judge agreed having looked at their submission. So re0invent the wheel if you must, but make sure your LBA goes to the Bank, not the sales and marketing office.

 

 

As mentioned above Buzby: House of Lords - Schalk Willem Burger Lubbe (Suing as Administrator of the Estate of Rachel Jacoba Lubbe) and 4 Others and Cape Plc. and Related Appeals

 

I can find nothing over-ruling this judgement yet - but I'm open to you backing up your assertions with something. So far, to me, it looks as if you certainly CAN sue PayPal in the UK.

 

The relevent section is Subbed as:

 

The applicable principles

 

Where the Plaintiff sues a defendant as of right in the English court and the defendant applies to stay the proceedings on grounds of forum non conveniens, the principles to be applied by the English court in deciding that application in any case not governed by Article 2 of the Brussels Convention are not in doubt. They derive from the judgment of Lord Kinnear in Sim v. Robinow (1892) 19 R. 665 at 668 where he said:

"the plea can never be sustained unless the court is satisfied that there is some other tribunal, having competent jurisdiction, in which the case may be tried more suitably for the interests of all the parties and for the ends of justice."

Thus it is the interest of all the parties, not those of the plaintiff only or the defendant only, and the ends of justice as judged by the court on all the facts of the case before it, which must control the decision of the court. In Spiliada it was stated (at page 476):

"The basic principle is that a stay will only be granted on the ground of forum non conveniens where the court is satisfied that there is some other available forum, having competent jurisdiction, which is the appropriate forum for the trial of the action, i.e. in which the case may be tried more suitably for the interests of all the parties and the ends of justice."

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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last of the mohicans- are you a recent seller on Ebay?

 

ALL newbie sellers face this payment block until they have 10+ positive feedbacks for selling.

 

I do agree with you, though-Paypal wouldnt like to have to try and justify this to a judge.

 

The London address is fine for legal documents, and yes, folks have served papers on Paypal and Paypal have always settled out of court.

Edited by noomill060
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Anyone know if thats changed? If not, Section 2, Article 5 seems conclusive:

 

Special jurisdiction

43

Article 5

 

44 A person domiciled in a Contracting State may, in another Contracting State, be sued:

 

45 (1) in matters relating to a contract, in the courts for the place of performance of the obligation in question;

 

 

 

Luxembourg is a signatory, isnt it?

 

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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last fo the mohicans- are you a recent seller on Ebay. ALL newbie sellers face this payment block until they have 10+ positive feedbacks for selling.

 

I do agree with you, though-Paypal wouldnt like to have to try and justify this to a judge.

 

Yup, I'm new, but they picked on the wrong one. :evil:

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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I read a good guide to this problem but i cant remember the link im afraid, the author did say he was succesful, like a lot of things PP-related, at the end of the day they are not to keen to contest legal action and will normally give in and release the money.

 

As to where they are based, true it is Luxembourg but I'm sure people have used the UK Richmond address to start court action, but maybe not, I found this advice online..

 

The paypal company that now processes online transactions is registered and located in Luxemberg,they do not have an office in the UK.

 

Paypal (Luxemberg) are not regulated by the FSA, they are now regulated by the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF), the Luxembourg equivalent of the FSA.

 

Paypal have volenteered to still use the Ombudsman service, and this is the only recourse we now have in the UK.

 

Andy

 

thanks Andy - if you remember where the guide was, can you post it in pls?

 

Cheers

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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Ah. You;ve been caught by the Money Laundering protection. You'll be stuffed. (Or, the matter will resolve itself before you send youre LBA).

 

Let us know how much time and effort you waste in this seeking redress. I could do with the laugh. Why not involve the Financial Ombudsman as well...? You play with their ball, you play the game their way.

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As you are new, you will just have to send the stuff, if you want paid.

 

Make sure you send it by recorded or special delivery or a Parcelforce trackable service insured up to the value.

 

You will be able to download your money after 21 days.

 

When you have 10+ feedback, your payments wont be blocked anymore. :-)

 

Yes, you could go through small claims - but it will take longer than just playing Paypal's game.

 

Its a bummer, I know. :-(

Edited by noomill060
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Ah. You;ve been caught by the Money Laundering protection. You'll be stuffed. (Or, the matter will resolve itself before you send youre LBA).

 

Let us know how much time and effort you waste in this seeking redress. I could do with the laugh. Why not involve the Financial Ombudsman as well...? You play with their ball, you play the game their way.

 

LBA goes off monday Buzby. Glad I've been on Cag before - if I hadn't I might make the mistake of thinking everyone on CAG was like you.

Edited by Last of the Mohicans

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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As you are new, you will just have to send the stuff, if you want paid.

 

Make sure you send it by recorded or special delivery or a Parcelforce trackable service insured up to the value.

 

You will be able to download your money after 21 days.

 

When you have 10+ feedback, your payments wont be blocked anymore. :-)

 

Yes, you could go through small claims - but it will take longer than just playing Paypal's game.

 

Its a bummer, I know. :-(

 

Well they expect me to send an antique saxophone to Spain - out of my own pocket. Yeah, right... ballcocks to them. They can go to court instead. The deal I have in the UK with a guy I'll try and resolve amicable between ourselves.

If I cant, he'll have to suck it up and get his money back off them however he can.

I *think* the law is black and white - until I have recieved the payment, the contract is null and void. I've not recieved the money - a third party has. Contract = void.

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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In the meantime, your buyer will simply open a Paypal dispute on the grounds that they havent received the sax they paid for and Paypal will refund them on your behalf, possibly charging you a sum for the privilege.

 

By the time this gets in front of a judge, Paypal wont owe you any money at all.

 

If I were you I'd tell the buyer he isnt getting the sax and refund his payment (assuming you can, there should be a button to do this on the Paypal payment page) then start again with another Ebay account, coz this ones gonna be trashed.

Edited by noomill060
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In the meantime, your buyer will simply open a Paypal dispute on the grounds that they havent received whatever they paid for and Paypal will refund them on your behalf.

 

By the time this gets in front of a judge, Paypal wont owe you any money at all.

 

Or, if I dont pussy-foot around, they get a summons long before he does that and bottle out. (But yes, I hear what you're saying)

Theres no way I'm paying for postage to Spain out of my own pocket let alone supplying goods outside of contract to anybody. The guy can simple say he never recieved and I'm down one saxophone and £300. Google is littered with examples.

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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I agree. Dont send it - but make sure you refund his money NOW. This isnt the buyer's fault is it?

 

You dont want to feel ripped off by Paypal and I'm sure, neither does your buyer.

 

Get a new Ebay account and set your seller options to block non- UK bidders.

 

Start by selling a few bits of tat to build up your seller feedback up to 10, then you wont have this payment block when you sell more expensive stuff.

Edited by noomill060
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I agree. Dont send it - but make sure you refund his money NOW. This isnt the buyer's fault is it?

 

You dont want to feel ripped off by Paypal and I'm sure, neither does your buyer.

 

Get a new Ebay account and set your seller options to block non- UK bidders.

 

Start by selling a few bits of tat to build up your seller feedback up to 10, then you wont have this payment block when you sell more expensive stuff.

 

I had no idea I could refund the payment - I've checked and I can. Why do you feel that the eBay account will be trashed?

 

Edit: actually it is "kinda" the buyer fault - I said I wouldnt take PayPal on the auction (ie clearly stated in the blurb) and that the winner should contact me before paying. He just went ahead and paid.

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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