Anyone taken PayPal to the Small Claims over witheld money?

[Last of the Mohicans]

Just that... they've arbritrarily witheld nearly £400 of mine demanding that I send goods to the buyers before they release (after the buyer has said alls good, of course)

 

I think thats illegal regardless of PayPals T&Cs - my contract is with the buyer, who bid on a No Returns basis and Immediate Payment terms.

 

Anyone got any pointers to any relevant threads or experiences?

 

Cheers

 

LotM

[buzby]

If you accept PP, you accept their terms. If your buyer pays by a different method, PPs terms are meaningless... not 'illegal'. Secondly, you cannot take them to Small Claims, you need to raise an EU action, as they are a Luxembourg Bank.

[Last of the Mohicans]

If you accept PP, you accept their terms.

 

Nowhere in their terms does it state "we will misappropriate funds paid to us in good faith" or "We will force your buyer to alter the terms of your contract with them" or "We reserve the right to force onerous terms upon you contrary to the legally binding contract between you and a third party."

 

If I'm wrong... point away. I'm here to learn.

 

If your buyer pays by a different method, PPs terms are meaningless... not 'illegal'.

 

?

 

Secondly, you cannot take them to Small Claims, you need to raise an EU action, as they are a Luxembourg Bank.

 

PayPal trade from Irish offices. When you have to send validation documents they are sent to Eire, not Luxembourg, besides which, I believe I'm right in saying that if you trade in the UK, you are subject to UK laws by default? Could you check on that?

[buzby]

(1) That's your interpretation, from your PoV. They are required to protect funds using excuses such as 'security' and 'money laundering' that will take precedence over your own wishes.

(2) If your buyer call round and paid you cash for the item - PPs terms are irrelevant.

(3) They have their European Headquarters in Wesat Dublin, but as a BANK they are registered in Luxembourg, and to be competent, you would still have to raise an EU action (for Eire) but it would be best serviced on Luxembourg as they are regulated from there.

 

(4) EU Laws apply - and Luxembourg ones. There's no 'default' UK liability I'm afraid.

[Last of the Mohicans]

(1) That's your interpretation, from your PoV. They are required to protect funds using excuses such as 'security' and 'money laundering' that will take precedence over your own wishes.

 

Just spent an hour perusing threads on paypal via search You seem to have quite a soft spot for PayPal Buzby

 

(2) If your buyer call round and paid you cash for the item - PPs terms are irrelevant.

 

As is you keep making this point old chap - if the buyer had paid cash, PayPal couldn't be robbing me, eh?

 

(3) They have their European Headquarters in Wesat Dublin, but as a BANK they are registered in Luxembourg, and to be competent, you would still have to raise an EU action (for Eire) but it would be best serviced on Luxembourg as they are regulated from there.

 

(4) EU Laws apply - and Luxembourg ones. There's no 'default' UK liability I'm afraid.

 

Leaving aside that I think you're wrong about going through Europe -

what do you make of this address Buzby?

 

PAYPAL (EUROPE) LTD

WHITTAKER HOUSE

WHITTAKER AVENUE

RICHMOND

SURREY

TW9 1EH

 

UK trading company, and therefore subject to UK law, perhaps?

[blitz]

Paypal used to have a UK trading company before becoming a bank under Luxembourg law

[Last of the Mohicans]

Paypal used to have a UK trading company before becoming a bank under Luxembourg law

 

 

Looks as if they still do Blitz, as per 192.com:

 

Paypal (Europe) Ltd

Carmelite

50 Victoria Embankment

Fleet Street

London

EC4Y 0DX

 

Tel. 020 8439 2000

[buzby]

Look - if you want to run with old information, fine. They became Registered as a Bank in Luxembourg in 2008, and at the same time de-registered from the UK Regulator at the same time.

 

You can pursue them in Ireland or London as you wish - but they don't have to respond (other than to tell the court documentation needs to be served in Luxembourg), and you lose your court fee regardless.

[Last of the Mohicans]

Look - if you want to run with old information, fine. They became Registered as a Bank in Luxembourg in 2008, and at the same time de-registered from the UK Regulator at the same time.

 

You can pursue them in Ireland or London as you wish - but they don't have to respond (other than to tell the court documentation needs to be served in Luxembourg), and you lose your court fee regardless.

 

 

OK, thats a starter for ten: when is a company trading in the UK to UK citizens excempt from UK consumer law and excempt from UK Civil Law?

 

Do you know that?

 

 

Another point:

 

I wasnt aware that - eg - if a summons was served on a company registered at Companys House (ie a bona fide British Company) they could claim exemmption from UK civil and criminal law simply by stating their head office is in another country.

 

Are you sure thats correct? Is there precedent for such a thing?

[Last of the Mohicans]

Buzby, it appears that under both the Hague and Lugano conventions you are entitled to claim against PayPal in the UK Courts whilst giving their Luxembourg name and address as the Defendant.

You must of course make reasonable steps to contact them by way of a LBA before issuing your summons, as per any other company or individual, ie it isn't strictly neccesary but advisable and "polite".

 

I will dig further, I'm sure you cant wait for the outcome

 

I will also look into thier liability under the Data Protection Act and contractual law - put very simply, unless they are in privity with the buyer and the seller (and they are not with either) I *think* they are breaking the law by enforcing a change of contract terms on either, or both parties.

[andydd]

I read a good guide to this problem but i cant remember the link im afraid, the author did say he was succesful, like a lot of things PP-related, at the end of the day they are not to keen to contest legal action and will normally give in and release the money.

 

As to where they are based, true it is Luxembourg but I'm sure people have used the UK Richmond address to start court action, but maybe not, I found this advice online..

 

The paypal company that now processes online transactions is registered and located in Luxemberg,they do not have an office in the UK.

 

Paypal (Luxemberg) are not regulated by the FSA, they are now regulated by the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF), the Luxembourg equivalent of the FSA.

 

Paypal have volenteered to still use the Ombudsman service, and this is the only recourse we now have in the UK.

 

Andy

Edited March 13, 2010 by andydd

[buzby]

Sorry, you got it complexly upside down - and may waste lots of good money in the process. Your use of PP is governed by their Terms of Service, these have changes 3 times in the last 24 months, including their right to move to Luxy, and disclosure of your dealings to a Credit Reference agency.

 

Each time, I was told if I did not wish to abide by the changes (as is my right) I need to terminate my account by a set date. If I did not, then I have been deemed to have accepted them.

 

How does the DPA get involved in this? It looks as though you are attempting to throw everything at it in the hope of some justification. As for using a UK address, why not Dublin? I did.

 

The advised that Paypal had many branches, however the Banking arm are Regulated in the Grand Dutchy of Luxembourg and the Dublin court had no jurisdiction. The judge agreed having looked at their submission. So re0invent the wheel if you must, but make sure your LBA goes to the Bank, not the sales and marketing office.

[Last of the Mohicans]

Sorry, you got it complexly upside down - and may waste lots of good money in the process. Your use of PP is governed by their Terms of Service, these have changes 3 times in the last 24 months, including their right to move to Luxy, and disclosure of your dealings to a Credit Reference agency.

 

Each time, I was told if I did not wish to abide by the changes (as is my right) I need to terminate my account by a set date. If I did not, then I have been deemed to have accepted them.

 

How does the DPA get involved in this? It looks as though you are attempting to throw everything at it in the hope of some justification. As for using a UK address, why not Dublin? I did.

 

The advised that Paypal had many branches, however the Banking arm are Regulated in the Grand Dutchy of Luxembourg and the Dublin court had no jurisdiction. The judge agreed having looked at their submission. So re0invent the wheel if you must, but make sure your LBA goes to the Bank, not the sales and marketing office.

 

 

As mentioned above Buzby: House of Lords - Schalk Willem Burger Lubbe (Suing as Administrator of the Estate of Rachel Jacoba Lubbe) and 4 Others and Cape Plc. and Related Appeals

 

I can find nothing over-ruling this judgement yet - but I'm open to you backing up your assertions with something. So far, to me, it looks as if you certainly CAN sue PayPal in the UK.

 

The relevent section is Subbed as:

 

The applicable principles

 

Where the Plaintiff sues a defendant as of right in the English court and the defendant applies to stay the proceedings on grounds of forum non conveniens, the principles to be applied by the English court in deciding that application in any case not governed by Article 2 of the Brussels Convention are not in doubt. They derive from the judgment of Lord Kinnear in Sim v. Robinow (1892) 19 R. 665 at 668 where he said:

"the plea can never be sustained unless the court is satisfied that there is some other tribunal, having competent jurisdiction, in which the case may be tried more suitably for the interests of all the parties and for the ends of justice."

Thus it is the interest of all the parties, not those of the plaintiff only or the defendant only, and the ends of justice as judged by the court on all the facts of the case before it, which must control the decision of the court. In Spiliada it was stated (at page 476):

"The basic principle is that a stay will only be granted on the ground of forum non conveniens where the court is satisfied that there is some other available forum, having competent jurisdiction, which is the appropriate forum for the trial of the action, i.e. in which the case may be tried more suitably for the interests of all the parties and the ends of justice."

[noomill060]

last of the mohicans- are you a recent seller on Ebay?

 

ALL newbie sellers face this payment block until they have 10+ positive feedbacks for selling.

 

I do agree with you, though-Paypal wouldnt like to have to try and justify this to a judge.

 

The London address is fine for legal documents, and yes, folks have served papers on Paypal and Paypal have always settled out of court.

Edited March 13, 2010 by noomill060

[Last of the Mohicans]

http://www.jus.uio.no/lm/brussels.jurisdiction.and.enforcement.of.judgments.in.civil.and.commercial.matters.convention.1968/doc.html

Anyone know if thats changed? If not, Section 2, Article 5 seems conclusive:

 

Special jurisdiction

43

Article 5

 

44 A person domiciled in a Contracting State may, in another Contracting State, be sued:

 

45 (1) in matters relating to a contract, in the courts for the place of performance of the obligation in question;

 

 

 

Luxembourg is a signatory, isnt it?

 

[Last of the Mohicans]

last fo the mohicans- are you a recent seller on Ebay. ALL newbie sellers face this payment block until they have 10+ positive feedbacks for selling.

 

I do agree with you, though-Paypal wouldnt like to have to try and justify this to a judge.

 

Yup, I'm new, but they picked on the wrong one.

[Last of the Mohicans]

I read a good guide to this problem but i cant remember the link im afraid, the author did say he was succesful, like a lot of things PP-related, at the end of the day they are not to keen to contest legal action and will normally give in and release the money.

 

As to where they are based, true it is Luxembourg but I'm sure people have used the UK Richmond address to start court action, but maybe not, I found this advice online..

 

The paypal company that now processes online transactions is registered and located in Luxemberg,they do not have an office in the UK.

 

Paypal (Luxemberg) are not regulated by the FSA, they are now regulated by the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier (CSSF), the Luxembourg equivalent of the FSA.

 

Paypal have volenteered to still use the Ombudsman service, and this is the only recourse we now have in the UK.

 

Andy

 

thanks Andy - if you remember where the guide was, can you post it in pls?

 

Cheers

[buzby]

Ah. You;ve been caught by the Money Laundering protection. You'll be stuffed. (Or, the matter will resolve itself before you send youre LBA).

 

Let us know how much time and effort you waste in this seeking redress. I could do with the laugh. Why not involve the Financial Ombudsman as well...? You play with their ball, you play the game their way.

[noomill060]

As you are new, you will just have to send the stuff, if you want paid.

 

Make sure you send it by recorded or special delivery or a Parcelforce trackable service insured up to the value.

 

You will be able to download your money after 21 days.

 

When you have 10+ feedback, your payments wont be blocked anymore.

 

Yes, you could go through small claims - but it will take longer than just playing Paypal's game.

 

Its a bummer, I know.

Edited March 13, 2010 by noomill060

[Last of the Mohicans]

Ah. You;ve been caught by the Money Laundering protection. You'll be stuffed. (Or, the matter will resolve itself before you send youre LBA).

 

Let us know how much time and effort you waste in this seeking redress. I could do with the laugh. Why not involve the Financial Ombudsman as well...? You play with their ball, you play the game their way.

 

LBA goes off monday Buzby. Glad I've been on Cag before - if I hadn't I might make the mistake of thinking everyone on CAG was like you.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Last of the Mohicans

[Last of the Mohicans]

As you are new, you will just have to send the stuff, if you want paid.

 

Make sure you send it by recorded or special delivery or a Parcelforce trackable service insured up to the value.

 

You will be able to download your money after 21 days.

 

When you have 10+ feedback, your payments wont be blocked anymore.

 

Yes, you could go through small claims - but it will take longer than just playing Paypal's game.

 

Its a bummer, I know.

 

Well they expect me to send an antique saxophone to Spain - out of my own pocket. Yeah, right... ballcocks to them. They can go to court instead. The deal I have in the UK with a guy I'll try and resolve amicable between ourselves.

If I cant, he'll have to suck it up and get his money back off them however he can.

I *think* the law is black and white - until I have recieved the payment, the contract is null and void. I've not recieved the money - a third party has. Contract = void.

[noomill060]

In the meantime, your buyer will simply open a Paypal dispute on the grounds that they havent received the sax they paid for and Paypal will refund them on your behalf, possibly charging you a sum for the privilege.

 

By the time this gets in front of a judge, Paypal wont owe you any money at all.

 

If I were you I'd tell the buyer he isnt getting the sax and refund his payment (assuming you can, there should be a button to do this on the Paypal payment page) then start again with another Ebay account, coz this ones gonna be trashed.

Edited March 13, 2010 by noomill060

[Last of the Mohicans]

In the meantime, your buyer will simply open a Paypal dispute on the grounds that they havent received whatever they paid for and Paypal will refund them on your behalf.

 

By the time this gets in front of a judge, Paypal wont owe you any money at all.

 

Or, if I dont pussy-foot around, they get a summons long before he does that and bottle out. (But yes, I hear what you're saying)

Theres no way I'm paying for postage to Spain out of my own pocket let alone supplying goods outside of contract to anybody. The guy can simple say he never recieved and I'm down one saxophone and £300. Google is littered with examples.

[noomill060]

I agree. Dont send it - but make sure you refund his money NOW. This isnt the buyer's fault is it?

 

You dont want to feel ripped off by Paypal and I'm sure, neither does your buyer.

 

Get a new Ebay account and set your seller options to block non- UK bidders.

 

Start by selling a few bits of tat to build up your seller feedback up to 10, then you wont have this payment block when you sell more expensive stuff.

Edited March 13, 2010 by noomill060

[Last of the Mohicans]

I agree. Dont send it - but make sure you refund his money NOW. This isnt the buyer's fault is it?

 

You dont want to feel ripped off by Paypal and I'm sure, neither does your buyer.

 

Get a new Ebay account and set your seller options to block non- UK bidders.

 

Start by selling a few bits of tat to build up your seller feedback up to 10, then you wont have this payment block when you sell more expensive stuff.

 

I had no idea I could refund the payment - I've checked and I can. Why do you feel that the eBay account will be trashed?

 

Edit: actually it is "kinda" the buyer fault - I said I wouldnt take PayPal on the auction (ie clearly stated in the blurb) and that the winner should contact me before paying. He just went ahead and paid.