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    • If anybody has any advice here, it would be greatly appreciated, I already suffer with pre-existing disabilities & have struggled with this so far. 
    • so return of goods order etc etc read upload  scan pages to jpg, redact in mspaint. the convert to and merge to one mass PDF  read upload and use the online listed sites for all 3 stages. do you want to keep the car? i will guess this was a manual paper claimform direct from the co.court or was it org sent from salford bulk processing and has just got reaq ssigned?      
    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
    • Now that is an interesting article which adds afew perspective that I hadn't thought significant - but on reflection of the perspectives offered ... Now Starmer is no Blair, however 'blairite he may be perceived, but the Tories aren't tories and aren't even remotely liberal   The fast 'unannounced and unexpected election call from sunack may well be explained by the opinion linked that he hoped reform would be unprepared and effectively call a chunk of Farages largely empty bluster - making him look even more of a prat, leave scope for attacks on shabby reform candidates and mimimise core vote losses to reform - while throwing the 'middle ground' (relative) tories TO THE DOGS - and with the added bonus of likely pacifying his missu' desire to jogg off to sunny cal tout suite somewhat   thumb in the air - I expect about 140ish tory seats, but can hope for under a hundred Reform - got to admit the outside possibility of 1, maybe 2 seats with about 8% of the vote - but unlikely. I think projections of over 10% of the vote for reform is nudged and paid for speculation - but possible with the expected massive drives from Russian, Chinese and far right social media bot and troll prods targeting the gullible.
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      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Imminent Employment Tribunal hearing


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The fact that the employer failed to follow their own disciplinary procedure or the ACAS guidelines is absolutely watertight and the evidence appears several times within their documents and correspondence. However, their massively delayed and backdated witness statements have been cleverly written and makes their case for the dismissal being beyond reasonable doubt a strong one (although i've found a couple of minor contradictions in their statements).

 

Hopefully the tribunal will be gunning for the employer after she flatly refused to provide copies of the witness statements despite receiving two letters from the ET telling her to hand them over. Each time the employer replied by telling the ET that she had taken legal advice and been assured that she didn't have to hand the statements over until 7 days before the tribunal hearing. This hearing is next tuesday. I was trying to not give that away at the start of this thread but it's close enough to drop the cloak and dagger act now.

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What you need to show the ET is that not only did the employer not follow procedure, but because they didn't follow procedure they came to the wrong decision about your friend's guilt and whether or not it was reasonable to dismiss him.

 

Sadly, I don't think that the respondant's failure to disclose documents will have any bearing on the tribunal.

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Sadly, I don't think that the respondant's failure to disclose documents will have any bearing on the tribunal.

 

Surely the ET would want to base their own decison based solely upon the evidence which the employer took into consideration before dismissing the employee though? By failing to disclose these documents the employer has given herself the flexibility to do as she pleases regarding evidence. Particulary as she has been in possession of my friend's evidence in it's entirety for eight months and has now provided witness statements which are specifically designed to shoot down all claims made within his evidence.

 

The question must surely be "was the dismissal fair at the time of the dismissal?". I'm not doubting you elpulpo (your info has been very helpful) but I'm struggling to comprehend a situation where an employer can unfairly dismiss an employee but is then given 8 months to potentially fabricate evidence which will then be taken into consideration at the Tribunal Hearing.

 

If that's the case then I may have to put my head in the oven until the pain goes away :rolleyes:

Edited by Fyffesy
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You will find that employment tribunals give a lot of leeway to employers and their business needs.....in other words unless your case is watertight they[the employers] can preety much do as they like when it comes to disciplinary and dismissal issues.

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You will find that employment tribunals give a lot of leeway to employers and their business needs.....in other words unless your case is watertight they[the employers] can preety much do as they like when it comes to disciplinary and dismissal issues.

 

So what is the point of companies having disciplinary procedures if they don't have to follow them? And more significantly, why do ACAS bother to set out guidelines if nobody cares if they are ignored?

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It is nothing to do with disciplinary procedures or Acas guidelines.....the bottom line is that if your face dosen`t fit then all the guidelines and principles dont mean a thing.

 

One further point, these solicitors and barristers are standing in front of the same judges on virtually a daily basis [they probably are drinking buddies for all you know], where as the employee is not even familiar with the surroundings on the day of the case.

 

Believe me i have been there.

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Surely the ET would want to base their own decison based solely upon the evidence which the employer took into consideration before dismissing the employee though? By failing to disclose these documents the employer has given herself the flexibility to do as she pleases regarding evidence. Particulary as she has been in possession of my friend's evidence in it's entirety for eight months and has now provided witness statements which are specifically designed to shoot down all claims made within his evidence.

 

The question must surely be "was the dismissal fair at the time of the dismissal?". I'm not doubting you elpulpo (your info has been very helpful) but I'm struggling to comprehend a situation where an employer can unfairly dismiss an employee but is then given 8 months to potentially fabricate evidence which will then be taken into consideration at the Tribunal Hearing.

 

If that's the case then I may have to put my head in the oven until the pain goes away :rolleyes:

Well yeh, so you need to concentrate on showing the tribunal that the Respondant didn't have sufficient evidence at the time of dismissal, and that the evidence that they've subsequently provided has been fabricated.

 

So, for example, you need to pay close attention to the fact that the respondant didn't give prior notice of the disciplinary hearing, didn't provide evidence at that time, etc. -all things that might lead the ET to consider that the respondant has made up evidence subsequent to dismissal merely to defend against your application to ET.

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It is nothing to do with disciplinary procedures or Acas guidelines.....the bottom line is that if your face dosen`t fit then all the guidelines and principles dont mean a thing.

 

One further point, these solicitors and barristers are standing in front of the same judges on virtually a daily basis [they probably are drinking buddies for all you know], where as the employee is not even familiar with the surroundings on the day of the case.

 

Believe me i have been there.

 

Sorry to hear you've had a hard time of it. At the end of the day all I can hope for is that my friend is lucky enough to get a fair hearing. He is a realist and he understands that a case such as his has a large grey area which could be interpretated differently from one judge to the next. It's a gamble but one he feels is necessary because the employers misinterpretation of events has left him with the stigma of a thief in the small village where he lives.

Edited by Fyffesy
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If you'd be happy doing so, it might be worth scanning the witness statements and posting them for us to have a read through. We might be able to find some 'holes'.

 

As this is my friend's case I think i should check with him first. To be honest, 4 of the 5 statements are brief and there are only minor errors in them. For example, one says he arrived at the pub at a certain time even though the till records show he arrived at least half an hour earlier. He says he witnessed the incident happen a few minutes after arriving even though the employer's boyfriend states that the incident happened half an hour later. I suspect the witness had been prompted into stating the incorrect time in order that it tallys with the employer's boyfriend's version of events. However, i would imagine that a judge would not expect a witness to be 100% accurate on times of incidents. Particularly because this witness had no idea he had seen anything suspicious until the following day.

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I notice this thread has been read a huge amount of times. Can I just ask for a vote on what people think we should do based on everything you've read? The choice we have is to withdraw the claim for unfair dismissal on monday or take them on in what seems to be a 50/50 shot. I don't mind who you are or how many times you've posted before but i'd be really grateful for your opinions. So do we quit on monday (the day before the hearing) ? Deal or no deal?

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Why quit now?

They've got no application for costs (have they?), you presume that they're representing themselves (and the guy's a putz). ET's hear cases day in, day out. If it comes down to a conflict of evidence, they'll tend to sniff out who's talking crap.

Far stranger things have happened than they'll get cold feet and come to a compromise agreement immediately before the hearing, or even half way through.

If you've got the time over the next few days (I'm in and out, a bit busy this weekend and Mon), I'll go over how you're intending on presenting your case with you.

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Under no circumstances QUIT now, at the end of the day even if you lose it will still cost your ex employers to defend your claim.

 

They might even make you an offer to makeyou go away, and it could cost them less to pay you off then fight the case.

 

They may even offer you your job back.........Keep fighting as all is not lost yet.

 

Remember no employer likes the fact that they have had an employment tribunal claim made against them.[it is a black mark on their business]

 

Let us know how you get on....Good luck and i repeat DO NOT GIVE UP.

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If you've got the time over the next few days (I'm in and out, a bit busy this weekend and Mon), I'll go over how you're intending on presenting your case with you.

 

I appreciated the offer but I thought I should spend the entire weekend familiarising myself with everything.There was a lot to go through and preparing the bundle was time consuming in itself. I had taken on board the things yourself and Madari had said and in the end I think I did a reasonable job at the hearing on Tuesday. I was certainly more prepared than the other side anyway.

 

Basically we won our case but it really was by the skin of our teeth and it came down to 3 factors.

 

1) The judge agreed that the employer had shown that they had the belief (beyond reasonable doubt) that gross misconduct had occurred. Although the judge did stress that this doesn't necessarily mean my friend was guilty of the accusations.

 

2) The judge agreed that the employer did not follow their own procedures at all. He actually seemed very cross with the employer when he interrupted my cross examination when I highlighted this.

 

3) Now this is the area I really don't understand. You could say that at this point the score was 1-1 and this was extra time. The judge mentioned a couple of things but it seemed to me he had made his decision based upon the conduct of both parties. I had highlighted their refusal to cooperate etc but I don't know if this was what the judge was talking about.

 

Anyway, we won- to a certain extent.

 

The judge decided that as my friend hadn't himself strictly behaved in accordance with grievance procedures shortly after the dismissal so he effectively reduced the award to zero.

 

However, as we'd established that the employer hadn't provided my friend with a written contract, the judge awarded 2 weeks wages to my friend.

 

Also, during cross examination i had also shown that the employer hadn't obtained any witness statements until 5 weeks later. The Judge said that only when these witness statements were obtained was the employer in a position which could be described a beyond reasonable doubt. So the judge awarded 5 weeks wages to my friend as well.

 

Overall the employer now owes my friend around £800.

 

Our schedule of loss was just over two thousand but the money was never an issue for my friend and I was just pleased to get out of there with the unfair dismissal ruling.

 

I can't thank elpulpo enough. Your insight into how the whole thing works was incredibly helpful. I was able to prepare questions specifically designed to tackle certain points which I absolutely never would have even considered without this advice.

 

For example, whilst the employer turned up simply trying to prove the theft, I was able to concentrate on trying to disprove they were beyond reasonable doubt. Granted, the Judge agreed with them but I visibly unsettled the employer and her boyfriend who expected to just show documents to prove my friend's guilt.

 

The whole thing lasted 4 and a half hours and I can honestly say that because of elpulpo's comments, nothing took me by surprise during proceedings. I think the Judge was well aware that I had done my homework and he knew what I was trying to achieve with my cross examination.

 

The look on the employer's face was incredible when I asked "I notice you haven't included a copy of your disciplinary procedure in your bundle. Can I ask you to turn to it on page 11 of our bundle. So Mrs xxxxxxx, do you believe you have complied with your own company's disciplinary procedure?"

 

And it was also very enjoyable when the guy who chaired the appeal read out his report then awaited my first question.

 

I asked "in paragraph two of your report you state blah blah blah blah blah.

 

He interrupted before I had finished reading the third line and said "I didn't say that".

 

I said "ummmm, Mr xxxxxxxxxx, you just said it 3 minutes ago and it's written in your report which we all have copies of".

 

Anyway, we won- just.

 

Thanks again for the help. Please feel free to ask anything if you're awaiting your own hearing. I think I have been able to learn a lot and I am more than willing to offer some hints and tips based on my own experiences.

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Grand. I was wondering how you got on, thought it might be bad when you didn't post yesterday.

In the rough old seas of the ET, I don't think it's a bad result at all.

Good that you grabbed the 2 weeks for no T&C's.

Now you've got to get the money out of them. Can be a whole new battle.:(

Well done anyway.

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Well I'm told it can take up to 6 weeks before the judgement is sent out and they then have 42 days to cough up after that.

 

I didn't post yesterday because I quite frankly needed a few pints at the end of this. Cheers again though. I would've gone in there with the completely wrong questions in mind if you hadn't opened my eyes to the fact it's not really about "did he or didn't he commit the theft". It's a lot more complicated than that and I firmly believe we won because you alerted me to what the judge actually wants to hear.

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Ah stop it. You've obviously got something about ya to have pulled it off. I didn't want to worry ya, but ET's are notoriously unpredictable. You can go wrong so easily for no good reason. Like ya said, the respondant probably pee'd the ET off a bit before the hearing even happened.

Brace yourself for getting the money out of them. The ET doesn't have any power of enforcement, as I understand it. If they just don't pay, you've got to start all over again and drag it through the small claims court. It can take several months. Hopefully it won't come to that.

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Well done Fyffesy [and Elpulpo], I'm very pleased for your friend.

 

Fyffesy, I hope you stay around and help with other ETs. You and Elpulpo will be pretty fearsome!

 

My best.

Edited by honeybee13
typo

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Well done...

---Aut viam inveniam aut faciam---

 

***All advice given should be taken as guidance... Professional advice should always be taken before any course of action is pursued***

 

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Make a contribution to this site... Help the CAG keeping on helping you for FREE.

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I must admit that this has been an obsession for me for the last 6 months. 50% was due to my absolute belief that my friend was innocent and 50% was due to the employer's horrible arrogance.

 

The end result is that I know a lot more than I did when I started this. I spent months researching and I was pretty sure I had it all sussed. But in the end I (thankfully) decided to ask you guys what you thought. The end result was that I dealt with the hearing on a completely different angle than I intended to.

 

I was well aware of this site because I personally had an unrelatred court case a while ago (which I won with the help of these forums) but I felt it was important to gain an understanding of how a case like this works before I threw it open to you splendid people.

 

I haven't got the confidence of elpulpo and bigredbus when it comes to handing out advice but if anybody wants my opinion-I'm more than willing to help.

 

Cross examination and preparation are my strengths I think. Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing and I've spent the last two days thinking "I wish I'd said.........this that and the other".

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