Mint - Is this agreement enforceable?

[Surfer01]

I am not exactly sure about the prescribed terms and where they should be held. The fact that the amount of credit they were offering on the card is definitely not mentioned anywhere in the document, however ther eis one interesting snippet which states no interest if paid in full at the end of each month.

At the time in 2004 my annual salary was £16750 and the credit tlimit that they set on the card was £3600 which in a way was irresponsible lending as there is no ways that I could have paid it off in the period of a month if I used it to the hilt.

Hmmm! Just noticed something else on my "application form". I ticked a box for "Card registration" for cover for 3 years. This is in case you lose your keys, cards etc. below it, it states "See T & Cs for a summary of card registration, but in the T & Cs enclosed this is nowhere to be found. Very suspicious. Maybe they have drafted their own T & Cs to suit the occasion. Shouldn't they have supplied a true copy of the T & Cs also and perhaps in addition to that, the same but printed so that it is legible? I now smell a rat!

[underdog13]

The prescribed terms should be within the four corners of the agreement; either on the signature page or on the reverse of the signature page. CCA 1974 clearly states that they cannot be found in a separate document - such as T&Cs.

 

It sounds as if they have just sent you a copy of their currents T&Cs. They are supposed to send you historic T&Cs as well as current, but very rarely do.

 

I think you are right to be suspicious.

[Surfer01]

I think I will chase them ujp and remind them that they have not sent me a true copy of the CCA as none of the prescribed terms are present on the document as it is an application form and see how they respond.

Just got to figure out how to word it in a legal sense etc.

[danson79]

Hi Surfer,

 

This can be a little complex so bare with me...

 

Creditors can get away with sending all kinds of nonsense under the CCA. Although I agree with Underdogs comments, banks tend to get away with not sending the information you require. It's wrong, I know, but the fact of the matter is that the banks are badly regulated when it comes to the way they control money, so this aspect of their business has no chance....

 

What it can do is provide a good indication of the records they have. For example, a photocopy of a document that meets the terms (as stated by underdog) would show there is a good chance they have the signed executed agreement in their possession (except this is RBS and we know they love their Photoshop!). In your case, the sending of an application form is a good sign. I would do the following:

 

a) Write to RBS advising the account is still in default. Clearly headline your letter 'Formal Complaint - account in dispute' and explain the application form does not meet the criteria of the CCA. If you need a template, PM me. Keep records of all correspondence and send mail by recorded delivery. This will keep the account frozen (in theory at least) and also put you into their complaints system. They'll farm it out to a DCA vulture anyway, but stick to your guns - you're in the right here. If a DCA contacts you, write back advising the account is in dispute (we can cross this bridge in more detail if/when it happens). In the event that this goes to court (no panic, just in case) then historically you will show you have taken every avenue available to you.

 

I can almost guarantee your response will tell you that you are wrong about what you think you should receive under the CCA and that the account isn't in default, you owe us money (blah blah). But you are right and they are wrong - don't forget this.

 

b) Send a FULL Subject Access Request to RBS. Definitely PM me for the letter, I have a template that covers everything. They have to provide their copy of the agreement under a Subject Access Request and if they don't,you can head for the Information Commissioners Office. RBS are notoriously rubbish at providing information under an Subject Access Request. This should clarify what document they hold as an agreement with you. If it continues to be the application form, then you're in luck. They'll possibly try and do what they have to me (and others on CAG) and cut your signature from the application form, copy it into a document with all the prescribed terms etc, despite the agreement not being in existence. (Yeah, it sounds like fr*ud I know, but this is the banks and they are governed by different rules to everyone else). Let me know if this happens...

Edited January 23, 2009 by danson79

[Surfer01]

Thanks Danson pm sent

[underdog13]

Good advice, Danson.

 

Any chance you could PM me a template of that detailed SAR, too?

[Surfer01]

Just tried to pm you but can't find link. Can you perhaps pm with template? Thanks.

[lil old me]

Surfer,

 

When I sent CCA request to Mint, they also supplied me with a copy of my application form - I wrote back saying that a copy of the aplication form does not fulfil my request for the CCA. Next, I sent them my SAR..I got a reply which at the end said, I can confirm that on this occasion we are unable to provide a copy of the original signed agreement.

 

So I have it in black and white that they do not hold an agreement for me. I have been writing since and each time have been fobbed off. Eventually they got f'd off with me and gave me their final response saying bog off. Ive just sent an e-mail to creditexpert scanning in this document from Mint saying they hold no CCA and gave all my reasons that the default should be removed. The next step should that fail is court. Or the Ombudsman?

[griffin036]

Subbing.

[upto the eyeballs]

subbing, Mint have just sent me an application form, no prescribed terms etc

[underdog13]

was this the original application form that you signed, uptotheeyeballs, or just a blank application form?

[upto the eyeballs]

Original application form for a RBS Advanta Platinum Reserve Card in 1999.

 

No credit limit, No payment information, Only APR states 5.9% for purchases and balance transfers fixed until march 2000.

[underdog13]

Thanks, uptotheeyeballs. My account is newer than yours, yet they only sent me T&Cs and refused to even discuss supplying my original agreement. Odd! I can't see how they could have lost my application form if they have yours from years previously?! Can't fathom what they're playing at:confused:

[Surfer01]

I still owe about £220 on this card to close it down, however due to being made redundant I am paying about £5 a month off on it and this will take forever. Most of this consists of £12 charges in 2007. At the moment there is no arrears on the card.

Can someone please clarify whether the agrement below is enforceable? Thanks.

 

Edited February 1, 2010 by Surfer01

[griffin036]

I would say that the form by itself is unenforceable as it lacks the prescribed terms. However if they were able to produce the other side, that may well be a different matter. It would appear the quality of copy may suggest an actual photocopy of the original rather than a microfiche one, in which case the original may well be produced. Although I am led to believe that whatever a creditor supplies in relation to a S78 request is/are the only documents they can rely on in court, this from s172:

 

Section 172 states:

 

172 Statements by creditor or owner to be binding

 

(1) A statement by a creditor or owner is binding on him if given under—

 

section 77(1),

 

section 78(1),

 

section 79(1),

 

section 97(1),

 

section 107(1)©,

 

section 108(1)©, or

 

section 109(1)©.

This means that the documents you have been sent are the only documents the bank may now rely on in any attempt at enforcing these alleged debts. Any further documentation they may present is irrelevant as they did not provide it in response to your lawful request.

Advice given is IMHO and should not be taken as fact, hopefully someone else will contribute to your thread.

 

 

 

 

[Surfer01]

hanks. Just annoying that there is so little left to pay but too much for me to pay off in the short term especially when it is mainly there charges.

[Surfer01]

Can any one confirm griffin's post? Thanks

[raydetinu]

if you challenge the validity of the agreement,IMO the account is in dispute and they cannot add any further default charges!? somebody else may have a view on this.

Edited February 2, 2010 by raydetinu

[Surfer01]

if you challenge the validity of the agreement, the IMO the account is in dispute and they cannot any further default charges!? somebody else may have a view on this.

Thanks I have re-posted the agreement in the OP.

[raydetinu]

Lacks prescribed terms as said before, so if thats all they have, I would dispute the agreement.

[Surfer01]

My statement runs from the 22nd of the month to the 21st of the next month. On the 13th April I phoned up and asked how much I needed to pay to settle the account and was given a figure of £187.88 which I then paid. I was then under the impression that the account was closed.

However at the end of April my statement reflected that I still owed them £2.62. Luckily the DMP organisation had made a payment of £5 so no late payment charge. The figure of £2.62 was for interest between the 22/03/10 and 13/04/10.

Surely as I had asked for a settlement figure to close the account I should have been given just that and not for them to suddenly find an additional £2.62. I now have a credit of £2.44 with them.

It is not the money but the principle however if this happen to 1 million people, that is a lot of money.