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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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jd williams cca help urgently needed


dgs82
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hi, does anyone know the factual legistration for an unenforceable cca with a catalogue company (jd williams)

 

i opened an account with jd williams end of november 2006. as far as i am aware i never received or sign any form of credit agreement.

 

i opened my account over the phone. not the internet or application form via the post.

 

i have tried everything i can regarding this situation that has now been going on for just over two years. jd williams will not accept any lower payment nor are they willing to listen. they just keep adding charges to my account and getting debt collection agencies to send letters threatening cout action if not apid in full the day i recieve the letter and to contact them immediately if i have problems paying the full outstanding balance.

 

however when i do contact them they will not accept payment other than the full amount.

 

also, without my request, permission and knowledge jd williams also opened another credit account in my name just a week or so after the first one. i have used the catalogue but is this not legal?

 

what i really need to know:

 

1, is there any rules/laws etc in 2006 that would prevent me going the cca route.

 

2, does the 2004 electronic signiture valid on telephone applications or is it just on internet website applications?

 

3, does anyone know of any lawful reason why a catalogue company would not have a signed by me cca in 2006.

 

in my mind, if this company had any enforcable cca, then they would have started court preceedings ages ago surely. at present i am receiving letters from debt collectors at least one every 14 days threatening legal action for at least one full year.

 

does anyone know if this is the way it goes?

 

also as far as the signed cca is concern i am a little confused as 5 people i know at christmas all opened accounts with this company. all accounts were opened via the internet with the tick in the box but all 5 received cca's in the post either after items were despatched or just after recieving items to sign with t+c on the back. the have to sign and send back.

 

three of which have not been signed and accounts still running as norm.

 

anyone know factual info?

 

all help very great fully received.

 

cheers

Edited by dgs82
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hi, does anyone know the factual legistration for an unenforceable cca with a catalogue company (jd williams)

 

i opened an account with jd williams end of november 2006. as far as i am aware i never received or sign any form of credit agreement.

 

i opened my account over the phone. not the internet or application form via the post.

 

i have tried everything i can regarding this situation that has now been going on for just over two years. jd williams will not accept any lower payment nor are they willing to listen. they just keep adding charges to my account and getting debt collection agencies to send letters threatening cout action if not apid in full the day i recieve the letter and to contact them immediately if i have problems paying the full outstanding balance.

 

however when i do contact them they will not accept payment other than the full amount.

 

also, without my request, permission and knowledge jd williams also opened another credit account in my name just a week or so after the first one. i have used the catalogue but is this not legal?

 

what i really need to know:

 

1, is there any rules/laws etc in 2006 that would prevent me going the cca route.

 

2, does the 2004 electronic signiture valid on telephone applications or is it just on internet website applications?

 

3, does anyone know of any lawful reason why a catalogue company would not have a signed by me cca in 2006.

 

in my mind, if this company had any enforcable cca, then they would have started court preceedings ages ago surely. at present i am receiving letters from debt collectors at least one every 14 days threatening legal action for at least one full year.

 

does anyone know if this is the way it goes?

 

also as far as the signed cca is concern i am a little confused as 5 people i know at christmas all opened accounts with this company. all accounts were opened via the internet with the tick in the box but all 5 received cca's in the post either after items were despatched or just after recieving items to sign with t+c on the back. the have to sign and send back.

 

three of which have not been signed and accounts still running as norm.

 

anyone know factual info?

 

all help very great fully received.

 

cheers

i had the same with little woods,send them the cca request enclosing £1 po for the fee and send it recorded delivery a.s.a.p.

i agree that if they know they have the correct paper work for this acc you would have been in court by now!

does your threatograms say we may do this we may do that ?,this is usual lowlife threats to be taken with a pinch of salt.

if no cca after the 12+2 days then send them tha acc in despute and stop paying them until they supply your legal requirment cca.

letters in the template library.

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Hi

 

Glad to see you made it....lol

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004 came into force in December 2004 any online agreements entered into prior to this date still need a signed executed credit agreement.

 

Electronic signatures weren't considered valid until this date.I dont think over the phone is compliant but not sure

 

The SI is here: The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Electronic Communications) Order 2004

 

Also it would still have to contain all of the prescribed terms to be valid

 

I have just posted this in another thread as an alternative to the CCA request letter quoting Carey V HSBC

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re 12345678910

 

With reference to the above account, I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of this credit agreement.

 

I refer to the recent judgement in the Manchester Mercantile Court Carey v HSBC bank Ltd [2009] EWHC 3417 where Judge Waksman set new case law regarding copies of agreements under the CCA1974

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request. I enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable.

 

The copy may be reconstituted from your records but must comply with the requirements set out in Carey V HSBC however I would prefer a photocopy of the original document

 

I understand a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days and after this time you must advise me whether you hold a copy on file after this period you may not enforce the agreement and I may withhold payment as in Casey V HSBC para 150

 

If the agreement has been varied you must supply a copy of the original along with the current terms and conditions Casey V HSBC para 108

 

If you provide a reconstituted copy you must advise me of this and explain why it may differ from the original as per para 57 and OFT draft Guidelines

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

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Live Life-Debt Free

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dgs82: Have a look at threads which mention JD Williams, Simply Be or Reliable Collections. All the same company.

 

Lots of experience on CAG about dealing with these monkeys. Usually you send the £1 CCA request, they reply to say they can't find it, or don't reply and go into default, or reply and try to con you into signing a new CCA document.

 

Once they are in default you can reply to their next demand and point that out, then ignore them. They'll try phoning, sending more letters and all that, but they have to show that they have valid documentation that they would reply upon if they (ever) took a case to court.

 

You mention ticking a box on-line. Sadly, that can be seen has having a valid agreement for many who apply on-line, but you say you did yours on the phone, so the tick box option is not valid for them.

 

They are a greedy company who add charges to accounts when they are fully aware the customer is unable to make payments, often due to losing a job or whatever.

 

There are some areas that are unclear, like they took out a second agreement and you used the catalogue - why on earth do that? You had an account with them and using a second account could have it's own implications. That is muddying the waters a little.

 

People you know who have taken out new agreements have nothing to do with your case, so ignore that. It's not relevant.

 

All you can do is request the CCA, follow procedure, and see what they do. If you are getting demands from (un)Reliable then that's just in-house.

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Be good to those who give you advice that helps - click the star to give them your thanks by way of a reputation credit.

 

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hi all and thanks for your replies.

 

themagcian: yea its just the normal rubbish they write like "formal demand", "would like an amicable settlement" and "will not hesitate to commence legal proceedings". all of these things have been on every letter for over a year.

 

b3rty: yea i made it lol thanks for pointing me in the right direction with how to do a thread lol and that letter looks brilliant i had already downloaded and printed off my letter to the collectors but think i may use this one now. and thanks for the 2004 act will have a read through it.

 

hillards: i am not getting letters from reliable anymore they are bored of me ignoring them. it is a company in scotland however it is exactly the same useless threats as reliable. the reason i used the account was credit limit was low on both. i had just moved to a new place and needed domestic items. at the time i was in full time employment and was making regular monthly payments. they responded by increasing my credit accounts over 6 months to quite a large. unfortunatly end of summer 07 i was burguled so i used the accounts to help replace electricals. i was however quite sensible when buying and did not use all of the credit which in total of the accounts would have been well over £2000. mid 08 i lost my job and this is where the problems started. i have not paid them any money since at all since feb 09 11 months ago in protest to the lack of willingness to first of listen to me and secoundly to even consider my monthly repayment suggestions. had they of been helpful in the first place i would be paying them monthly installments to clear the debt and would not be writing this now.

 

after what i have read on this site in the last 24 hours and i ahve read a lot about 8 hours i have read altogether, i firmly believe that these company have no enforceable cca things would have been moving along before now in terms of legal proceedings considering that i have not paid any money for 11 months. i may be wrong we will see when i post the cca request to them first thing monday morning recorded delivery.

 

thanks again for the replies guys, all info is welcome. the more info the better.

 

will keep u all up to date

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o hillards,

 

i take your point on other peoples accounts with this company. however in my mind the fact they are sending out cca's for new customers to be signed, dated and then returned is a statement in itself. i.e. these tick box for this company is somewhat useless as why would they waste money and time sending out cca's if the tick box on the screen or even over the phone is a legal bidding cca that is enforceable?

 

i am not saying i am right, i may be very far from the truth and jumping the gun. it just strikes me as a little strange and bad bussiness sense to waste money obtaining something you already have in your records. this company mentioned above is greedy. they wouldnt waste money like that surely?

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This company, in my opinion is despicable. Their relentless disregard for peoples privacy and underfanded abuse of peoples knowledge of the law infuriates me.

They try an impose ( by their own right) intrest charges of 138% and involve debt collection companies, to collect on their part... parasites ( cant swear here, to tell you the real feelings).

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OH Yes.. these ppl anger me more than i can explain.

My mother was on her death dead, and these f****** N morons persisted in tryin to call the hospital to harras her. i got involved n told them where to go... but the harm they caused was not forgotten... after she died a week later.

Edited by SL8R
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that is sickening!!! but it does supprise me with this company. can i ask have u got anywhere with them and if so whats happened if u could it i would be very great full

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I simply told them that their interest rates were extorsonate, and no court in this country would uphold them, then told then to p***s of, not heard from them since.

 

They prey on people who fall into unfortunate situations and try to bleed them dry.... tell them to put up or shut up( that's polite). personally i would set fire to them all..... and laugh at them.

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i totally agree with you them taking advantage of people. esp with the elderly. an elderly family member who has had problems in the past with them has had an account for years. however, slowly but surely people are getting wise and learning how to challenge these people. i have learnt so much today about the cca law/rules. i am convinced the dont have a cca for me after what ive read. and i know for a fact they defo will not have one for my family member. lets hope you dont get bothered by them anymore.

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i have re- read this thread from the start, and i appologise fro the confusion. I thought you were critisising my mother( who if it where yours) you would have been protective of?

 

Anyway i see what you are saying and appologise to you...

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Ok i have unapproved a few posts. Glad you have seen the comments made were not aimed at you SL8R.

 

Lets shake hands and move on with the problem at hand.

WARNING TO ALL

Please be aware of acting on advice given by PM .Anyone can make mistakes and if advice is given on the main forum people can see it to correct it ,if given privately then no one can see it to correct it. Please also be aware of giving your personal details to strangers

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Ok i have unapproved a few posts. Glad you have seen the comments made were not aimed at you SL8R.

 

Lets shake hands and move on with the problem at hand.

 

That would be good to move on however when i get pm's regarding my mother, (copy of which i shall forward to yourself) its hard to move on.

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JDW made the news at ten last week. It showed inside theeir call centre. Out of 800 staff half didn't turn up for work. Said it was due to the snow but I suspect it was due to the dimwits not wanting to do their nasty job.

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I hate these people too!!!

 

I am currently helping my wife deal with them as she is too unwell to cope.

 

They keep sending statements each month with massive interest and admin charges, even though I have CCAed them and got the usual piece of paper with no signature.

 

How can I get them to put up or shut up?

 

Should I write and tell them she has no intention of paying and to take her to Court or go away. I have been to Court over three of my cards and successfully defended each time so I am not worried about the prospect of this at all.

 

Pookey

I'm in the DCA kicking business ..........and business is good!!!!

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hi thanks pookey, i dont know about ppi's i am afraid.

 

from what i can make out, if you have sent a cca to jd williams, they have 12+2 to reply with either a legally signed cca that is enforceable or a letter informing of why they cannot provide this.

 

after the 12+2 days, if you have not recieved a enforcable cca then, as far as i am aware you are legally entittled to stop paying without further notice until such a time they can provide a cca.

 

at this point i would then write to them, i would say that i am not satisfied with the poor attempt to fulfill my legal request. i would tell them that i am not legally binded to any lawful cca which in effect means no outstanding debt. i i would also send a s.10 requesting them to give a detailed explanation of why they feel they have a legal right to share my personal data with third parties. i would then request that they immeditely stop sharing my data as there is no lawful reason as to why they are doing this.

 

(there are articles and legal terms of s.10 on this site, i cant remember all the info)

 

i would also consider sending a SAR.

 

thanks

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  • 2 weeks later...
o hillards,

 

i take your point on other peoples accounts with this company. however in my mind the fact they are sending out cca's for new customers to be signed, dated and then returned is a statement in itself. i.e. these tick box for this company is somewhat useless as why would they waste money and time sending out cca's if the tick box on the screen or even over the phone is a legal bidding cca that is enforceable?

 

i am not saying i am right, i may be very far from the truth and jumping the gun. it just strikes me as a little strange and bad bussiness sense to waste money obtaining something you already have in your records. this company mentioned above is greedy. they wouldnt waste money like that surely?

 

Sorry, missed this earlier

 

What they do is send out a document to sign so they make sure they have a legally binding agreement, rather than take any chances on not being able to find the original. Some people are daft enough to sign and return it.

Be good to those who give you advice that helps - click the star to give them your thanks by way of a reputation credit.

 

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  • 1 year later...

This is a problem I have. In 2008 I bought goods from them because I was going abroad for a few months and paid upfront. No mention of credit agreement and I certainly didn't ask for one. Whilst abroad my mum told me that I had letters back home to say that I had a credit limit with them. That I hadn't asked for! Fair enough, I said, though I didn't plan to use it as I learnt my lesson a decade earlier, in my early twenties, with store card debt. Well whilst abroad I went through a bad break up with my then boyfriend and before I got back I also had experienced a traumatic phsycial injury. I decided to 'treat myself' to some nice new clothes using the credit, after all, it can't hurt right? Fast forward to 2010 and as quickly as I was paying off the limit I had, they were putting it up. It started at just £150 and was over 2,000 by last year. At one point I was paying them £150 a month just to try to pay it off but the interest kept accruing. Anyway I am now in 2,250 debt to them and they are trying to get repayments.

My query is - I know what I'm like when it comes to store credit, hence why I didn't ask for credit and paid upfront for the goods. I was fine for ages but then a little vulnerability/crisis in my life and bang they had me by the short and curlies. Personally I think it should be illegal. They have effectively committed fraud by opening a credit account without my knowledge. There was honestly no mention at the time I paid for the goods, I wouldn't have done it otherwise. Yes I shouldn't have ordered anything from them but it's human nature to do that and these sick companies prey on human nature. If I had asked for credit then I would take responsibility but I didn't even ask for it in the first place, and feel positively shafted.

What can I do, if anything??

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